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Old 09-10-2010   #61
Florence, Colorado
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Originally Posted by gh View Post
Unless you want to start paying more taxes there is very little we can do about solving the words problems and frankly its ok with me if we mind our own business and work on our own problems.
Then, in the end, we agree.

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Old 09-10-2010   #62
pnw, Washington
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Originally Posted by TimberTroll View Post
Then, in the end, we agree.

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 09-15-2010   #63
Denver, Colorado
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Great thread!Never agreed with Blutski more.Mania extremely well said on multiple things,Theo very well argued.Even agreed with TT about cartoons,we can't let them inhibit our freedoms,but there is no reason to antagonize them like this yahoo in Florida.

Of course humans had morality from our earliest origins .They had to function as a group to survive ,this requires empathy.We are inherently a social animal in spite of all this uber individualist insanity that has gripped this culture.I WOULD DEFINE TRUE MORALITY AS REASON TEMPERED BY EMPATHY.Our ancestors were obviously lacking the former[ arguably we still are] so likely compensated with the latter.It is largely subjective though,there was emnity[sp] not empathy for the other ,out of necessity.We 've partially evolved beyond that,how much is debatable.

Spreading Christianity was absolutely, as TMTR said, one of the "primary'' causes for conquest of the "new world'.Cortes may have been one of history's great avaricious glory hounds and Pizarro and others tried to emulate him, but the crown financed it and tasked the conquistadors to convert the indians.Priests accompanied all[most of ] the voyages and began destroying indian idols almost immediately.They destroyed all but 4 of the Mayan codices,something akin to the Muslims burning the library of Alexandria.De Landa causes the loss of massive Mayan knowledge,Ali that of Hellenistic and Egyptian civilizations.The pope divided up the new world between Spain and Portugal,[Treaty of Tordesillas].In colonial 'New Spain' the Inquisition tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of indigenas who didn't submit sufficiently.The backdrop to the " discovery" and conquest was post Reconquista Spain,the final Moors were expelled from Granada in 1492 ,same year as Columbus' first voyage.Religious fervor was rampant,EXTREME CATHOLICISM.Later champion of indigenous rights and outspoken about their mistreatment in the name of god,Bartolome de las Casas was with Columbus.

They didn't spread disease deliberately they wanted workers-peons-slaves to work the estates many owned by the church.They spead them inadvertently in the course of conquering and exploiting them,justified by religion.
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Old 09-20-2010   #64
Denver, Colorado
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Minor corrections;New Spain referred specifically to Mexico above the Itsmo de Tehuantepec[ including sw US ] ,Campeche and Yucatan.I meant it in the broader sense ;all Spanish holdings in the Americas.I was trying to find stats about the Inquisition;they claim they only killed 50 people in 250 years presence in Mexico/New Spain[1571 -1821],but the book says that is misleading because many died in jail of disease,neglect,infections from wounds inflicted by inquisitors,suicide ,etc.They did not try indians for heresy because they basically considered them incompetents intellectually/morally [and because of opposition from good priests like de las Casas and even from Charles V] but they tortured many for lesser offenses.They held ' AUTO DE FE'S ' fairs where they mostly punished by humiliation like dunce caps ,scarlet letter A type marking,stock and pillories,etc.Other Spaniards prior to and during the inqiuisition exercised inquisitorial tactics in forcing Catholicism on indegenas.Who knows the real totals from the entire Spanish new world empire.I went to an exhibit in Mexico City on European instruments of torture and punishment in the 16TH -19TH century[they had at least 60 ways to torture you] put on by a human rights institute.I'm near certain they claimed victims in the 100's of thousands.

Like Helio said there is no certainty as to the population figures.One source said 26 million in central Mexico at time of conquest and only 2.6 million 50 years later with a footnote saying many scholars consider those figures[PRE 1570'S] way high.IN THE NEXT 37 YEARS IT WAS REDUCED BY 60% TO BARELY OVER A MILLION with more reliable stats.Another modern anthropologist estimated that it was 16 million with 90%percent dead by the end of the 16th century and that they only recently recovered to that #.They can't even agree how many indians there are now in Mexico,one institute that doesn't count indians who have lost their land or language,or mestizos who identify more with their indian roots says 6 million, another more inclusive one says 20 million.

They have pinpointed the arrival of small pox in Mexico to someone from the Panfilo Narvaez expedition sent to arrest Cortes,non of the original 450 conquistadores[5 priests] had epidemic diseases.

Cortes was partially self financed as were many expeditions initially,once they bore fruit the king would send more men ,ships,supplies,tax collectors,priests,bishops ,etc.The monarchy mostly seemed concerned with collecting their QUINTO =20 % of the spoils/booty/loot/bullion ,not to mention the land and people on it as subjects.
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Old 09-21-2010   #65
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Interesting thread about religion, but I find Ron Paul's essay much more pertinent. He is talking about government, and the hijacking of government by religious fundamentalists. The irony, pure irony of the fundamentalists on so many levels is a distraction (I see most of this thread indulging in this distraction), while they proceed to take over our government for their own purposes. I think we are experiencing a movement more powerful than facism which combines power of the corporation and state. This is a combination of religion, corporation and state, far more dangerous. You can absolutely not fight these people with logic, they are into believe systems. In fact you cannot fight them at all, you must go around them and rally resistance.

Education and tolerance can be our only weapons. We must reach the young before they are indoctrinated. The web can be an ally, as can universities. We must demand freedom of religion, at all costs, even if you are atheist or hate religion. The fundamentalists will be undone by religious freedom.
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Old 09-21-2010   #66
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Interesting debate at Unbelievable Radio that speaks to some of the issues in our thread here;{8C19BBBA-7680-4449-82F0-D41E0F08456C}

Peter Hitchens is a writer and regular columnist for the Mail on Sunday. Unlike his atheist brother Christopher, Peter is a committed Christian having himself been an atheist in younger years. His new book "The Rage Against God" challenges the anti-theism of his brother and the 'new atheism', taking as its starting point a debate they both took part in two years ago.

He debates with atheist Adam Rutherford, a scientific broadcaster and writer, on whether society can function without a God-given moral compass at its centre. They cover issues such as faith, secularism, the church, atheist states and abortion in this wide ranging discussion.

"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-21-2010   #67
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BTW - I'm thankful for the people who comment on my posts and especially those I disagree with. I'm often given something to think about I haven't thought of before and it sharpens me. Thanks.
"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-22-2010   #68
dillon, Colorado
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Any of you checked out Freeratio website? Pretty cool site about politics and religion.

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