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Old 02-29-2008   #1
Livingston's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
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Mission Accomplished...

I just saw that oil hit $103 a barrel today. It reminded me of what Osama's purpose really was: How do I know? I was stated on his website.

Remember, he too is an oil man (well construction actually). His family was owed billions by the Saudis. He wrote extensively on how the US was screwing him because of unpaid invoices to his family business and the Saudis were not paying because oil was at $20 per barrel. The other thing he wanted: US bases out of Saudi Arabia.

A few days before the infamous "Mission Accomplished" carrier embarrassment, the US quietly announced it was withdrawing from S.A.
Mission Accomplished - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
United States withdrawal from Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bush liked to say that we were attacked because they were jealous of our freedom. The patriot act, warrantless wiretapping, election fraud (yes, people are in jail in Ohio because of 2004), and who knows what else will come out later, all diminishes our freedom.

Al Qaeda is now firmly established in Iraq and have a legitimate argument as to why we are assholes and/or evil. It only takes a couple MVHydes to step on a few innocent Iraqi throats before they take the same ignorant position as MVHyde (they are all like that). No better training or recruiting ground could have been designed.

Are we really that stupid? Well, one in five Americans thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth.
New Poll Gauges Americans' General Knowledge Levels

Congratulations Osama, mission accomplished. In your wildest dreams, you couldn't have expected success of this magnatude. Hopefully a Democrat gets elected so the Bush family can no longer protect you.


"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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Old 02-29-2008   #2
pnw, Washington
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Totally agree. Nice post.

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 02-29-2008   #3
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Thirded. The real evil doers, are economic evil doers. and, *gasp* there are quite a few of them in this country, sitting right at the top of the pecking order. Weehaw.
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Old 02-29-2008   #4
Self-Aggrandizing jackass
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Livingston, I'd like to see any articles you know of that speak convictions for election fraud in either 2000 or 2004. I am not saying it didn't happen. I have never found anything other than rumor and innuendo. I've never even heard of a prosecution. I'm not calling anyone a liar, let me be clear. I'm trying to educate myself.

I think allegations of election fraud are very very serious. More serious than anything else I can think of politically. If someone is fixing elections, I want to know.

There's a real irony to the Al Qaeda situation after the withdrawl of the Soviets from Afghanistan in 1989, we let Afghanistan rot. The extremists who were on our side from 79 to 89 were abandoned.

As for bases in Saudi Arabia, the entirety of the Arabian Peninsula was more than happy to see the 82nd Airborne Division land in the first week of August, 1990 (The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq happened on August 1). The bases were used to protect the world's supply of oil when it was threatened. I think this was a legitimate use of American power to protect not just US interests, but those of the world.

You've got your usual arguments of the US supporting despotic regimes for financial reasons.

The Saudi Government was happy to have us and to let us stay after the first Gulf War, on leases, I believe (meaning, temporary use of facilities). Indeed, the whole world was pretty happy the US had a Navy with 12 supercarriers!

Geopolitically, the closest operational base to the Persian Gulf region is Diego Garcia, a TINY island about 1,000 miles off the southern coast of India. It's WAY too far away to exert pressure into the Gulf or to Saudi Arabia. The next closest is Italy. Again, much too remote for US fleets and air power to maintain a protective posture over the oil-rich gulf states.

Ultimately, Gulf War 1 was legitimately about protecting the world's (I emphasize world, not just United States) oil supply. Japan, China, and Korea are more dependent on oil from the Gulf than the US (because the US gets supplies from Venezuela/West Africa that the Pacific Rim does not). I say "legitimately" because I think it's kinda cool that my country's military is well trained, supplied, and equipped to operate half the world away, and I think it's pretty cool that my country's values are magnanimous enough that we'll foot the bill to keep the world economies working on pretty normal terms, at least from the standpoint of energy supply.

Maybe that makes me a fascist again, I dunno.
(I'm not justifying the invasion of Iraq, just our presence in the region up until 2003).

I don't know anything about unpaid debts to Bin Laden's family construction company. I do know that the price of oil isn't set by the United States, it's set by OPEC. And the US and other countries are frequently frustrated by the inability to leverage OPEC to do anything about prices and production. So Bin Laden is kinda dumb on those points, if you ask me.

There were other ways to handle the price of oil and the bases on Saudi Soil than to blow up the WTC. As far as I know, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda never even gave a half-hearted attempt at peaceful remediation with their government, ours, the United Nations, or any other world body.

The real goal of Al Qaeda is to institute a New Caliphate and to reclaim the glory of Salahadin's empire, establishing Islam, as Al Qaeda defines it, as the law of the land as far and as wide as can be achieved. In short, Al Qaeda and a sizeable minority of Islamists in the region want to establish a worldwide country very similar to what Afghanistan was in the 90s. Their first "big step" was an attack on the world's only superpower, the United States.

I can't remember the name of Christianne Amanpour's documentary on Afghanistan was called (I think it was hers - "Behind the Veil" ? or something?) but it's a good watch and a good education into how they run things, and what their sick mindset is.

If the US hadn't had bases in Saudi after Gulf 1, Bin Laden would have used some other justification. Perhaps it would have been "women are allowed to go uncovered in public" or "men are not required to wear beards as Alah intended them to" or anything else. They're sick, twisted, violence-embracing murderers, and that part shouldn't be forgotten. Whatever propoganda they use to justify their murderous policy is just that: propoganda.

True, the expedition into Iraq was a huge blunder. My main forte as an intellectual is military history (and the geopolitics that drive military action is secondary to that) and your'e right: we've done more to make Al Qaeda look noble than they ever could have without us invading Iraq. And god what we could have done with Afghanistan to prove Al Qaeda incompetent had we not diverted all those troops and money to Iraq. It could be a helluva state if we'd put even one-quarter the resources into it that we put into Iraq, and how noble we'd look now had we done so...

(and I like to point out, for honesty's sake, I was initially for the Iraq war, and remained so until 2005)

But fighting Al Qaeda after 2001 was, and remains, a right-thinking military-political endeavor. And nothing the US has ever done can justify what Al Qaeda has done to the United States, nor what can it justify their real ideological goals.
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 02-29-2008   #5
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Denver, Colorado
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election fraud

Was the 2004 Election Stolen? : Rolling Stone
The Free Press -- Independent News Media - Election Issues

Plenty more articles out there.
"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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Old 03-04-2008   #6
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Denver, Colorado
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You had enough time to read those last two links? Do you call that rumor or inuendo? Can you give a link to an opposing article that legitimately counters anything in either of those two articles?

I think allegations of election fraud are very very serious. More serious than anything else I can think of politically. If someone is fixing elections, I want to know.
Now you know. We agree on the severity of voter fraud/disenfanchising; if you don't have the most basic right, you don't have anything.

Yeah, seemed like the right move to go to Kuwait in 1990. Not the purpose of my post to question that. Just that we caved to Osama's demands in 2003 by leaving Saudi Arabia.
On a side note: Not too sure of the validity of this statement, but I find it often. It seems James Baker gave Saddam the nod to go ahead with invading Kuwait. F'ed up. James Baker

As for bin Laden being pissed about unpaid debts, that came from Armed Madhouse by Greg Pallast. A good read.

As for al Qaeda, yeah, of course they are bad people. Don't think we disagree there. I go a step further and put a lot of Christian Evangelicals in the same basket.
BBC - Press Office - George Bush on Elusive Peace
The White House wisely denies W said this though.

Where are we now, $104/barrel?

"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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Old 06-10-2008   #7
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Denver, Colorado
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Good news, oil dropped $3/barrel today. We are now at only $131!

So how is Bush doing... America is going bankrupt (in debt and in recession), oil well over $100/barrel, and we are out of Saudi Arabia. The only question is whether Bush is an idiot or an accomplice?

I would like to urge anyone who cares to write their congress(wo)man and Senators. You can find them here: Project Vote Smart - American Government, Elections, Candidates and Voting

Demand to put impeachment back on the table. Demand investigation into the 35 articles of Kucinich read today. Daily Kos: State of the Nation
The excuse that it is too late, he's almost gone is BS. We cannot set this precedent for future presidents. We need to gain the world's respect and trust again.

At the very least, please register to vote.


"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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