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Old 09-18-2008   #61
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<Sigh> My "private stream" is a river, and Colorado law allows boaters to use it. And on my "private stream" boaters are completely welcome to scout and portage. I simply object to hardware slinging trout killers trespassing on my "private stream." Now, can we return to the actual topic of the thread?

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Old 09-18-2008   #62
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Helio,I was right with you until you lauded Raygun.Yes a balanced budget was one of the republican's, main issues in those days,but who ran up all these deficits?Answer ; people following his supply side economic philosophies.Clinton had ' pay as you go' and ran a budget surplus of; 3.6 trillion projected over 10 years?Remember one of Ronnie's budget cutting measures,reducing the protein portion of subsidized school lunches by a third and counting ketchup as a vegetable.So even if a poor kid's parents are deadbeats ,do you think the kid should be punished/deprived food.Is there no correlation between nutrition and learning.I KNOW YOU DON'T ESPOUSE THAT ,AND SORRY FOR DREDGING UP A 25 YEAR OLD ARGUMENT ,BUT IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF RAYGUN'S MENTALITY.

KEVIN, Everyone acknowledges Obama's middle name,unfortunately the same as Saddam's last name, and that his father was muslim.There is no evidence Barrack was ever a practicing muslim.Even if he was ,isn't religious freedom one of our highest values?This is a multi -ethnic pluralistic country and you crypto- rascists better get it through your thick skulls that this IS NOT A WHITE CHRISTIAN COUNTRY. Your point is utterly ridiculous,so no one in ,say Turkey, should ever vote for a candidate middle named John.

No Theo I have never actually read that crap ,other than the book jacket[repugnant enough} ,but have heard/ seen journalism about it where they read excerpts and played quotes straight from the horse's mouth in context.I ACKNOWLEDGED YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT OPRAH AND THAT YOUR MEANING WAS PROBABLY DIFFERENT.

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Old 09-18-2008   #63
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As far as ridiculing 'IT TAKES A VILLAGE',once again a deliberate distorting of it's meaning.It is not about government hand outs .It is about organizing societies resources in a way that is conducive to the success of the average person and having a support network.The individual is not absolved of responsibility for there own lives ,they have to keep up there end of the social contract.The point is that the commons should be managed in a manner that facilitates an individuals success ,not have the odds stacked against them by vested power.

This individualism gone mad belies the reality that humans are a social animal,and that competition is often counterproductive.A lot of that mindset comes from our current automobile culture and our pioneer/cowboy heritage,especially in the west.We need to find a way to retain some of that American character while adapting to the modern world.Regressing into rabid individualism is a recipe for conflict and stagnation.
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Old 09-18-2008   #64
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It saddens me to hear McCain/Palin apologists ridicule the "greater good" in the name of individualism. I was struck by the incredible irony of "Country First" sloganeering at the GOP convention, when that party has been at the forefront of "me first individualism" at great cost to our nation.
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Old 09-18-2008   #65
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Cayo, I think any attempt to revise Reagan's contributions to the country are as inaccurate as any to revise Clinton's. Reagan's deficit spending brought down the Soviet Union, and the country was sufficiently strong that, after the end of the Cold War, the economy recovered and excelled, as evidenced in Clinton's administration. They were a great pair for the country, each in their own way.

Both were solid fiscal policies for the times in which the nation lived.
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 09-18-2008   #66
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Helio - Gotta disagree with you on the "Reagan's deficit spending brought down the Soviet Union" claim. The Soviet Union brought down the Soviet Union. The threat of "Star Wars" just accelerated the inevitable. I vividly recall hearing Harrison Salisbury, longtime-NY Times correspondent in Moscow, talk in 1982 about the pathetic state of the USSR. He predicted that the USSR would soon collapse back then. Giving Reagan complete credit for the demise of the USSR is incomplete history, if not revisionist history. I know it's an important part of the Reagan Myth, but it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
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Old 09-18-2008   #67
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
I've read the whole context of his statement and I can't see what else he would be referring to in the statement other than Abortion. Explain to me hw he could be talking about something else.
The mistake that Obama is eluding to is having unprotected sex.

The point is that a lack of education about contraception can lead to teens having unprotected sex. Both the Abstinence only and the Comprehensive sex ed folks encourage teens to abstain from sex, but when teens have sex despite this message, it's better that they use protection and avoid the mistake of unprotected sex. The potential consequence/punishment of unprotected sex is a pregnancy and/or STD's.

As to caspermikes position that it is the families responsibility to teach their kids about sex - I agree. However many families fail in delivering this message to their kids. Also some well intentioned parents pass along misinformation, or are too embarrassed to give their kids all the info they need. There are real societal costs associated with unwanted pregnancies and STD's. Sex ed in schools can be done for a relatively small amount of money compared to dealing with young mothers, unwanted kids and people with HIV/AIDS.
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Old 09-18-2008   #68
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Originally Posted by cayo 2 View Post
The individual is not absolved of responsibility for there own lives ,they have to keep up there end of the social contract.
Send me a copy of this social contract. I don't sign anything without reading it first.
"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-18-2008   #69
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Ever heard of Locke and Rousseau the framers had.

Helio, Reagan's gamble may have paid off in certain respects,what about the other ill effects of supply side economics?Neo conism is derivative of neo liberalism and supply side economics, as is this flat earth Friedmanite globalism.I 'll dig up a book called CURRENT HISTORY with all the original arguments by Thatcher,Kissinger, Kilpatrick and others.
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Old 09-18-2008   #70
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I've been stayingaway from some of the political threads lately but I felt like this needed to be added to the debate. Here's a litany on the hypocirsy of the conservatives regarding the race.


This is Your Nation on White Privilege
By Tim Wise

For those who still can't grasp the concept of white privilege, or who
are looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this
list will help.

White privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol
Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your
family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or
your parents, because "every family has challenges," even as black and
Latino families with similar "challenges" are regularly typified as
irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay.

White privilege is when you can call yourself a "fuckin' redneck," like
Bristol Palin's boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with
you, you'll "kick their fuckin' ass," and talk about how you like to
"shoot shit" for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American
boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug.

White privilege is when you can attend four different colleges in six
years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of,
then returned to after making up some coursework at a community
college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to
achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as
unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first
place because of affirmative action.

White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller
than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about
the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan,
makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don't all piss
on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term
state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you're "untested."

White privilege is being able to say that you support the words "under
God" in the pledge of allegiance because "if it was good enough for the
founding fathers, it's good enough for me," and not be immediately
disqualified from holding office--since, after all, the pledge was
written in the late 1800s and the "under God" part wasn't added until
the 1950s--while believing that reading accused criminals and terrorists
their rights (because, ya know, the Constitution, which you used to
teach at a prestigious law school requires it), is a dangerous and silly
idea only supported by mushy liberals.

White privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people
immediately scared of you.

White privilege is being able to have a husband who was a member of an
extremist political party that wants your state to secede from the
Union, and whose motto is "Alaska first," and no one questions your
patriotism or that of your family, while if you're black and your spouse
merely fails to come to a 9/11 memorial so she can be home with her kids
on the first day of school, people immediately think she's being

White privilege is being able to make fun of community organizers and
the work they do--like, among other things, fight for the right of women
to vote, or for civil rights, or the 8-hour workday, or an end to child
labor--and people think you're being pithy and tough, but if you merely
question the experience of a small town mayor and 18-month governor with
no foreign policy expertise beyond a class she took in college and the
fact that she lives close to Russia--you're somehow being mean, or even

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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