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Old 11-03-2008   #61
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The High Ground, Colorado
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Originally Posted by benrodda View Post

"he neeeeds us"


Honestly I struggle with sovereignty of God. I cannot get my head around it.

On one hand we are given freewill and choices to make. The choices we make are opportunity to show honor, respect, worship... etc.

On the other hand he is in control and has a plan.

In bible college we studied Arminianism and Calvinism. People would try to suck me in to the dabate. Generally I would answer that I was both.

So often times my prayer is to try to understand my limits and his. What I should take responsibility for and what he will. Similar to the serenity prayer:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Gods response to me is dynamic. So yes I feel a responsibility to vote and speak out on what I believe. At the same time I feel it is somehow in his hands. Sorry if this does not help.

It is struggle. I heard a man I greatly respect put it like this; We shake our indignant finger at God and ask how can you allow this to happen? and He then looks down on us and says; How can YOU allow this to happen?

I take a high view of the sovereignty of God while also realizing that I only see a snapshot in time, a dim view at that, and that I don't have a view from the beginning to the end. Time is a linear right? probably not.

I also grew up a Baptist and used to teach a class on the Baptist Faith and Message. While teaching that class I was always acutely aware of the awesome responsibility and reverence with which we handle God's word and that linkage to the doctrine of soul competency. Ultimately that's what it comes down to; soul competency.

It sounds as if you'll prayerfully make your decision based on the best possible information at hand. Regardless of the out come of this election I'll be happy in any circumstance because "I know that in ALL things God works for the good of those who love Him...." and like the grass and the flowers, I'm just passing through.

FWIW - I'm a Reformed Theology Calvinist. I don't believe we have as much "free will" as we like to think we do.

- Theo

"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 11-03-2008   #62
no tengo
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Baytopia, Colorado
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Daily Kos: I Quit My Church Today

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Old 11-03-2008   #63
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Originally Posted by mania View Post
I rate it a two bongs on the bouncy ball scale.

"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 11-04-2008   #64
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Bozeman, Montana
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were did you get the pick of bush hanging out at my house?
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Old 11-04-2008   #65
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Durango, Colorado
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Good article, Dana. I think it sums up how a lot of us feel. So far our church in Durango has not crossed that line, although they have their conservative leanings. The church we went to in Bayfield did cross that line and that bitter feeling has stuck with me for quite some time.

I really wonder how many of you out there would be interested in studying the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, but the American Church of today is a huge turnoff to many because of political leanings that have nothing or very little to do with the teachings of Jesus. How many are in that situation? I am curious to hear your story.
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Old 11-04-2008   #66
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Politics and religion

Very interesting thread. I'm not a normal participant in this forum but often a reader, so let me share my philosophy and then some comments.

Philosophy: I am a registered Libetarian, and I voted Obama. My beliefs about religion are my own and not for public display, be it said that I am panentheistic. I both kayak and raft. I believe tolerance and education are the key to all our problems.

Comments: I think one of the smartest things our founding fathers did was to try to separate church from state. Granted secular decisions aren't popular with all, and nothing is completely secular, but I think it is better than any alternative. Having said that, one of our greatest threats is theocracy.

I think this thread is very educational, and at times tolerant. The advantage of a web forum is the potentially wide audience and participation. The disadvantage is anonymousity and freedom from personnel accountability. Having this same discussion in a room with all participants would be different because tolerance would be the primary lesson.

Isn't it great that this type of forum can exist? At the risk of perhaps abstracting from the controversial topics being discussed, is it possible for internet forums (in general) to be morphed into real political or religous reform? If so, how?
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Old 11-10-2008   #67
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The Ranch, Colorado
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Since there are two of you who enjoy these subjects (that I know of), I thought I'd post an interesting book & review:

A Lot of Lattés - Books & Culture

"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 11-10-2008   #68
Denver, Colorado
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Good article,I liked the phrase'' mass institutionalized consumerism",thats our culture, consumption for the sake of consumption then guage our success individually and as a nation by level of consumption=status.

I find it highly ironic that many people don't trust giving money to those to whom they look for spiritual and political guidance.

To be fair ,i doubt secular liberals donate as much as we give lip service to either.I think most of us ,Americans,give sometimes but not as often as we'd deem appropriate.There was a suryey a few years back where they asked Americans what % of our budget we give in foriegn aid and what they thought was appropriate.Most people were under the impression we give apx. 15% and that we should give about 5%,I believe the reality was around 1% very low among advanced nations.We do give a lot of private donations ,and other countries that give more governmentally probably give less individually.As a percentage of personal income I bet we give slightly lower but can't support it.They have a government committment and some generous individuals,we have generous people but low governmental committment.More than one foreign visitor to the US has told me that Americans are more inclined to help strangers out,with say a flat tire or a ride somewhere,than in most countries.Usually people have been very nice to me abroad,there are jerks everywhere too,unfortunately.

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