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Old 01-31-2007   #21
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
marko: Thank you for your encouraging words. I like to be told I don’t get it. Let me add some countries to your list: Chile, Grenada, El Salvador, Hungary, Turkey, Pakistan, The Philippines…is that good? Yes, welcome to the grown up world. The U.S. has used dictators to further national interests since our inception. We also manipulate smaller countries. If we having the same conversation in Russia, we would use Poland, Slovakia, Georgia, Afghanistan, Iran, Estonia, Lithuania, Yugoslavia as examples and if we were in China we would use Nepal, Tibet, Viet Nam, Korea and Mongolia as examples. In the grown up world, big nations manipulate smaller ones. That by itself doesn’t make the big country’s policy bad. The result of the policy determines what is good and what is bad. In Iraq the policy turned out to be a disaster. That is what’s bad. Condemning the U.S. for involving itself in other county’s business—no matter how much you want to root for the little guy, or how ideologically opposed to it your are—isn’t by definition, bad. When dictators, like Musharraf (by the way he is an enemy of our ally India, the largest democracy in the world), are sympathetic to U.S. interests, our government has a tendency to support them. It doesn’t matter if a democrat or a republican is in office. I’m not going to malign the sun rising or setting, and I’m not going to trash my wits because a big country meddles with a smaller country’s affairs. BUT I WILL PROTEST THE RESULTS.

Speaking of history, I watched every moment of the Security Council meeting where Secretary of State, Powell laid out the U.S. timetable for Iraqi compliance; there wasn’t one country who agreed that Iraq, for eight years, had met its obligations under resolution 1440. The Feb. 14 report by Mohamed ElBaradei was met with skepticism since it was widely considered to be over optimistic. Dr. ElBaradei also had a reputation for being a megalomaniac and by the time his Feb. 14th report was issued to the Security Council, the weapon inspectors were seen as ineffective and moot. Less than two months later the U.S. ended Saddam’s regime in one night.

So I guess I will do myself a favor and pay attention to history from now on. While marko is self empowering himself by using predictable, cookie-cutter, logic derived from the left’s political spin machines, I’m going to critically analyze the war in Iraq for what it is…a horrific, bloody mess.

El Flaco: Sorry man, my wife wants my attention now.

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Old 02-01-2007   #22
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
Thanks for welcoming me to the grown up world! Wow, I wanna go back to sucking my mom's tit. Seriously, this grown up world sucks! Too much ego and arrogance.

You know what, Farp? You are right. I shouldn't have said that you don't get it. It is not very diplomatic nor does it solve anything. Please excuse me, and I'm sorry. YOu are obviously an intelligent person and that comment wasn't necessary. Also, this moutainbuzz eddy thing has nothing to do with personal "self empowerment." I fortunately have more to my life than my mountainbuzz identity. Honestly, this eddy thing is actually the biggest waste of my time, and I am finished with this for good - right after this post.

Okay, so I guess your posts kind of confuse me. I write a post in response to Buffalo dude, and not you - you then decide to chime in and call me "worse than the right-wing conspiracy theorists during the Clinton Administration" because I write about US gov't support for dictators if they support "US interests" (economic, influential corporations). You then say, "Truthfully—and ironically what is far more embarrassing to the Bush administration than these conspiracy theory stories." Not once did you address any of the points I brought up... you just called it "conspiracy theory stories." Also, I have no idea what Sean Penn said, nor do I care, and I don't read

Your last post then comes back to address this dictator thing and you say, "The U.S. has used dictators to further national interests since our inception. We also manipulate smaller countries." You then go on to say, "In the grown up world (that's my favorite part), big nations manipulate smaller ones. That by itself doesn’t make the big country’s policy bad." So in your first post it's a conspiracy, and now it's just what big nations do - dominate and control the small guys.

Now, here is where your logic gets a little...weird?...hmmm, not sure how to label your logic. You say, "The result of the policy determines what is good and what is bad." Bad for whom? And good for whom? Well, if US interests reap huge profits and Americans reap the benefits by being able to consume their products for cheap, then it's good policy, right? Well, what about the other oppressed people of the smaller nation? It was great that Americans kept getting cheap bananas from United Fruit company after the coup in Guatemala in 1944. But was it good for the people of Guatemala? I'm pretty sure they would say, NO! It was great that US corporations were able to reap huge profits from the natural resources in East Timor, but was it good for the hundred thousand or so of East Timorese people who were killed in order to get these natural resources? Again, probably NO! This logic kind of implies that you only care about you and America and care nothing about the people of other nations who are getting fucked in the ass by US interests because that is just what big countries do. Is that what you are implying? Just curious...

Again, Farp. I am sorry for telling you that you don't get it. You can respond to my post any which way you would like. I really am officially done with this eddy thing, so you will get no reply from me after this.

Take care and maybe we can meet up sometime on the river.


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Old 02-01-2007   #23
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
I just had to add this incredible article to the pot. It is so relevant to the US Foreign policy I was writing about.

Here is a paragraph from the article:
I had set out to explain how exactly our government came to be so hated around the world. As a CIA term of tradecraft, "blowback" does not just mean retaliation for things our government has done to, and in, foreign countries. It refers specifically to retaliation for illegal operations carried out abroad that were kept totally secret from the American public. These operations have included the clandestine overthrow of governments various administrations did not like, the training of foreign militaries in the techniques of state terrorism, the rigging of elections in foreign countries, interference with the economic viability of countries that seemed to threaten the interests of influential American corporations, as well as the torture or assassination of selected foreigners. The fact that these actions were, at least originally, secret meant that when retaliation does come -- as it did so spectacularly on September 11, 2001 -- the American public is incapable of putting the events in context. Not surprisingly, then, Americans tend to support speedy acts of revenge intended to punish the actual, or alleged, perpetrators. These moments of lashing out, of course, only prepare the ground for yet another cycle of blowback.

Okay, seriously. I'm done.
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Old 02-01-2007   #24
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
I know it's addicting. Hard to stop. Okay, I'm ready for Spring.
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Old 02-01-2007   #25
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,012
I can relate to the feeling of eddy burnout. Kind of like banging your head against a wall? Alot of the post here are very intelligent and well thought out, however, usually extremely lopsided. May I suggest that the truth lies somewhere down the middle. I.E. US foriegn policy is corrupted by corporate interests, but the War in Iraq wasn't just to make Haliburton rich. Saddam Hussein jerked the world community around too long and never complied with all the UN resolutions but was it really necessary (given the progress, albeit late and slow, made by the UN inspectors right before the war) to go to war without international support and a rock solid (or even jello solid) exit strategy.

Maybe a more productive discussion and one that doesn't cause brain damage would be to see where we agree on something rather than quoting essays from questionable sources to support our biased opinions. Never are liberals and conservatives going to agree on everything (nor should they because they are both wrong). And never is an internet debate going to make anyone switch to the other side. It seems to me this country isn't going to be taken down by terrorists or by global warming. It's going to be taken down by polarized infighting and the inability to come together on anything.

But then I gotta say what fun would that be. Nevermind.
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Old 02-01-2007   #26
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Thought-criminal, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 989
It's going to be taken down by polarized infighting and the inability to come together on anything.
Nope. Robots.
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 02-01-2007   #27
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
I thought it was computers, ie skynet, and then the computers build the robots. Isnt that right?
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 02-01-2007   #28
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 316
So I am not sure who to ask this and I am not trying to piss anyone off.

1. Were the oil reserves in Iraq nationalized like what Chavez attemping to do in Venezuela? Did he really have that much control over the oil? I know that we (U.N.) had an oil for food treaty which was abused, are there other ways that he could have abused that ie supporting organizations or counties that were anti-american

2. how much oil do we rely on from Iraq? How much to other anti american countries rely on from Iraq?

3. Do you think that any wmd's might have been smuggled from Iraq?

4. Since Iraq is in a civil war should our role be to serve as a referee until the people have a desire to work together.... or given the culture and the core value of "eye for an eye" they will never end up working with each other. So we just get out of there and let them slaughter each other or just let another dictator step in.

I think this is probably way too much. Thanks in advance for being objective. By the way I dont have a political persuasion.

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Old 02-01-2007   #29
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
This is a little OT, but it is from a blog. Kind of pissed me off.

The Troops Also Need to Support the American People

by William M. Arkin

So, we pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?
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Old 02-01-2007   #30
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Summit, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
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Hey Bastard, have you been getting your obscene ammenities out there?
Come home safe.


"The world would be a better place if everyone kayaked."-Brad Ludden (Valhalla)
"You only get one chance to run a drop blind."-DD
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