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Old 11-04-2008   #31
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by gh View Post
Apathy, good call and you call me a sheep. By not playing, you just get played.
Huh? How is that apathy?

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Old 11-04-2008   #32
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Buena Vista, Colorado
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Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
It was founded as a haven for Christians. Remember the pilgrims?
That is dead wrong.

The pilgrims were escaping religious prosecution, but they did not found The United States. To think that would mean that we should be a Native American Nation as they were here long before the pilgrims. Founding the USA was the work of those guys in 1776, remember? Those guys, for the most part believed in a higher prescience, but were not into the European model of state sponsored, and enforced religion. They felt that a separation of church and state would be good for religion as it would encourage religion to flourish. No prosecution meant that all religions would have an equal footing.

State governments did their best to thwart that, and the repercussions are still around today. Christians would not be happy if it was Muslims trying to make their religion the religion of the state, but do not understand their hypocrisy of them pushing the opposite view.

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Old 11-04-2008   #33
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Bozeman, Montana
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Old 11-04-2008   #34
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What a pile of crap these arguments of over $250K, class warfare, etc. We are running a gazillion dollar deficit. We can't cut spending enough to bring it in balance, even if we quit all our wars and canceled the bailout. So, taxes will have to be raised sometime, and they WILL be raised, but probably not until we are already bankrupt. In the meantime, who should pay MORE taxes? The Rich, or do you seriously think the poor should? I mean, come on, if you are making more than $250K, and whining about getting taxed so much, why don't you quit making the money! Will it save you money? No, because, even paying more taxes (on that incremental income), you will be making more money! Who should pay for the bailout? People making $30K? Really?
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 11-04-2008   #35
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Bozeman, Montana
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i know im someboyd that makes about 30k a year by my self. and it does get hard sometime but i am a mother fucking American! i work my ass off for what i do have want and need. why should somebody like my older borther living in trailer houses with friends going through 12 jobs a year only making 5000 a year get anything back from the government? more over anything at all? somebody that makes 250k a year im sure worked there ass off for what they have what gives somebody the right to say you make to much money im taking some and giving it to these lazy fuckers who can work but choose not to. its bull shit. why would anybody try to better themselvs when the government will take care of you? i know drive and american dream will disappear. what is the american dream? so our government can take care of us all? i don't think so its about individualism, freedom, capitalism, no limits! why does the government owe anybody anything but what the constitution garantees. equal oportunity is turning into equal outcome and that is not the american dream.
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Old 11-04-2008   #36
pnw, Washington
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Blutzski, ok apathy is probably a poor choice of words. I just dont see that "the man" is going to care or notice if you vote for "other". I do believe that making a protest against the two party or just the system in general is a good idea but I believe when it comes to voting that you should pick the candidate that best reflects your ideals and has the possibility of winning. There are many ways to make a difference, get involved during the primaries, start a protest march, whatever works but I think you threw your vote away and accomplished nothing.
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 11-04-2008   #37
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Boulder, Colorado
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There's a myth of equal opportunity in this country. The myth goes something like: everybody has equal opportunity to succeed and your wealth is proportional to how hard you work and how valuable your job is.

It makes me wonder if people that purport this, without a hidden agenda, have actually met any wealthy people. I went to college at a school with a large number of wealthy people and it quickly became apparent that most of the wealthy people in this country inherit their wealth and power. Low tax zealots constantly whine about how un-American the "death tax" is. It's just the opposite. Setting someone up with a fortune just because of the lot they were born into is the exact opposite of American equal opportunity.

For that matter, people frequently acknowledge inequality of pay amongst professions. Does the backup kicker for xyz NFL team deserve more money that the high school teacher that works 80 hrs a week for $30k? Is that an accurate reflection of their contribution to society? No, there are many positions whose pay is not commensorate to the skill level or value of the job. Plastic surgeons can make, literally millions doing unnecessary cosmetic surgery in wealthy communities, while family doctors make a pitance in comparison. Lawyers can make millions finding tax loopholes for the wealthy, while public defendents often barely squeeze into the middle class.

There also seems to be a myth with regards to financial motivators. There's this idea that people are motivated to achieve in pursuit of wealth. I do believe that is, in part, true, though there are certainly other motivators. But the theory goes on to say that high taxes on the wealthy (let's say over $250k annual income) will deincentivized the motivation to achieve and therefore people will stop training for high paying positions (say med school) or not risk starting their own business. I also find this to be a very odd argument.

Let's take a fairly extreme case that may show up in only the most highly taxed countries in the world. Say if I make $300k a year, I get taxed at 60%. If I make $30k a year (caspermike's salary), I get taxed at 20%. I think this is much larger gap than anyone has seriously proposed here, but let's go with it. At $300k, you come away with $120k in disposable income. At $30k/year, in my much lower tax bracket, I come away with $24k/year. So is it worth it for me to move up into a wealthy tax bracket when I know I'm going to lose $180k to the government instead of just $6k?

Well, let me think, with $24k a year, I cannot afford to buy a home, I will be scrounging to buy a new creekboat when mine breaks every year, and I sure as hell will be holding on tight to my paddle when I swim. I also will make sure I'm close to a river because I can't afford to take too many drives to the river. Oh yeah, and I'll definitely be rolling around in an old car.

Now at $120k a year, I can probably afford to buy a 3000 square foot home in a nice location near the mountains. I can drive around a nice shiny vehicle and buy a new Jefe every year. I can build up a college fund for my two kids so I can send them to the best school possible, and of course I'm in a wealthy school district so they have access to some of the best education around. I think that's strong financial motivation.

Sorry, I'm going overboard as usual, but I find this notion that there is some tax percentage that it is our god given right never to exceed absurd. What is important to us is our opportunity available to us for the amount of money we earn. What determines our economic wealth is competitiveness our nation, the education and training of our workforce, and the ability to innovate and start businesses. It has nothing to do with a magic % of your income tax bracket.

There also seems to be some myth constantly perpetuated that tax money just disappears into some black hole, permanently sucked out of the economy. Yes, lowering taxes is a way to stimulate the economy in so much as it tends to stimulate people in lower and middle class to spend more money, but so is government spending. If you are increasing taxes, but that money goes into government programs, that money is going back into the economy. It can be in the form of jobs for military contractors, jobs for alternative energy research labs, occupational therapists working for a govnerment program, etc.

Remember the saying life isn't fair? Guess what, they're right, but tax policies are aiming to make life more and create more opportunities for everyone. Yes, there is a notion of unfairness that can be drawn from saying that I should not have to pay more tax dollars because I make more money than you, but it ignores all the externalities that determine wealth and fairness.

Wow, I think I've built up a lot of political tension I didn't know that I had and am finally releasing in the last week of the election.

Can we at least agree that they need to shorten the election cycles?
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Old 11-04-2008   #38
Lakewood, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 504
I cast my third straight vote for Nader today. He honestly answers questions instead of giving political answers and he genuinely cares about people and not big business. Too bad he'll never have a shot.
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Old 11-04-2008   #39
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,012
Does Nader still want to cap salaries at $100,000? I was entrigued by him until I saw that several election cycles ago.

Regardless, I congratulate you on voting your values and beliefs and not buying the BS regardless of whether he has a shot or not. More people need to do that. Sorry GH.
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Old 11-04-2008   #40
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Well I have been where you are but I have changed my mind on many issues during the Bush presidency.

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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