Hold on Dr. Jones, we go for a ride now!

[heliodorus04]

Dear god, Marko, even John Lennon said “If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.”
If you insist on calling the invasion of Iraq “Illegal” please delineate the difference between a legal invasion/occupation and an illegal one. Saying it’s illegal imperialist aggression is right out of the Fidel Castro/Che Guevara/Hugo Chavez playbook. Blah-blah-blah, cry me a river you bleeding heart tree hugging fag*
*No disrespect to actual homosexuals meant
Congress authorized military action. There was no declaration of war. There hasn’t been a declaration of war since World War 2. Sidestepping declarations of war does not make American military intervention “illegal” by any clause in the Constitution of the United States. Period. Asserting something approvable such as that puts you in the same category of histrionic loony, like Kucinich, who claims to have seen a UFO. I don’t care whether he did or didn’t, but you shut up about it when you want to be taken seriously.
As for no candidate running for their party’s nomination, two candidates clearly seem to want to turn away from an “interventionist” foreign policy. Obama for the democrats, and Ron Paul for the Republicans. I will vote for either one of them, but being a Federalist ex-conservative, Ron Paul appeals to everything I believe in.
Incidentally, United States companies are not selling Iraqi oil. Iraqis are, and that is the basis of their government funding, such as it is.
What exactly is imperialist about Iraq? What exactly are we plundering, in the way the European powers plundered the natural resources of India, South and West Africa, etc.? What exactly are we stealing from them through our military occupation?
I don’t argue that the invasion was conducted for false purposes and in terms of setting terrorists back in their interest has certainly had a counter-productive result. I don’t argue that it has weakened the United States considerably and emboldened Iran, China, and Russia. I don’t argue that the only reason troops remain on the ground right now is to keep this administration from looking worse than they already do. I don’t argue that the funding used to continue the occupation/war has contributed much to the economic woes now impending upon the United States as a whole.
But the only imperialist function served is to strengthen the strategic position of the United States by creating a government that will both 1) friendly to tue US to allow us to maintain bases in the region for the indefinite future, and 2) is stable enough not to descend into chaos and (further) destabilize the geographic region. As a strategy, there are pluses to achieving success there. I don’t personally believe they’re worth the cost, and frankly I don’t feel, Marko, that your understanding of global-military-geopolitics can comprehend what advantage the US gains in even a marginally successful pro-US government arising in Iraq, so I’m not going to make it part of this discussion. Let me reiterate that I don’t feel such a strategic goal is worth the investment, but I do understand some strategic planners’ thinking on the matter at this point.
The US economy is also sliding toward recession for several other reasons. The speculative nature of the real estate market, combined with the wonky financing of mortgages to lots of lenders with confirmed poor credit histories is the tipping point. No political side can lay claim to full responsibility for this aspect of the possibly impending recession. On the Political Left, you bleeding hearts wanted to do whatever was reasonably possible to get people who were underprivileged into homes for the first time. That was and is a laudable goal, because home ownership is the key to personal security and retirement. The political incentives to first-time home buyers were good ideas. The private sector’s funding of them left a great deal to be desired. Combine this with the natural human greed factor from people from all economic and political persuasions investing in houses to “flip” quickly for profit, there have been simply too many people taking speculative risks in home buying, and too few regulations on guaranteeing loans from mortgage brokers. What’s going to happen now with this will be interesting to see… And it’s not going to be pretty if it keeps going the way it seems to.
On the other hand, State and Local governments, particularly in Colorado, and insanely so in my home-town of Colorado Springs, have sold their souls to the real estate developers and construction companies. Particularly down here in the Springs, new houses have gone up like it was cool, with little to no consideration for taxing developers such that roads, schools, and other infrastructure could be adequately provided for. This is rather the case all over the country. Blame whatever party controls those local governments. As I say, all governments are Oligarchies – people who get elected to office tend to want to stay there more than any other motivation in politics. Getting elected takes a war chest, and politicians tend not to give a rat’s ass who drops coins in. Strangely, they tend to take their political promises seriously only to those groups that fund the war chest.
The nature of this economy is floundering due to President Bush’s absolutely insane social spending. He has sold the country out to both the Iraq war and the placebo of free bread from Rome. One of the chief reasons for disillusionment on the right is that the fiscal restraint that was the hallmark of conservatism died when Bush took office. Even if you only look at half the deficit spending, whether it’s the war or social programs, it’s bad. But the fact that he combined them both, and that Congress has done nothing to rein him in is unforgivable. Unforgivable.
The nature of the economy isn’t really beholden to the Military-Industrial complex. Yeah, that complex is a bit of a problem, but not like it was in the 1970s and 80s. The economy is in trouble because Government spending has been out of control since Clinton left office, and speculative real estate investment, combined with the rising cost of energy, is devaluing the US Dollar.
Marko, you always seem to point the finger of blame at the White House, but it’s a co-equal branch of government with Congress. I, personally was elated when the Democrats took control of the Congress, because I thought change, or at worst, deadlock (which is better than nothing) would take over. What the fuck are the democrats in Congress waiting for! Stop the madman in the White House! I don’t care if it’s to end the war or cease the passing of budgets!
The next President better be committed to balanced budgets and reducing the deficit, and that will mean BIG reductions in spending. The war in Iraq should be stopped simply because we can’t afford it, let alone that it’s possibly counter-productive and stupid…
Read somebody else besides Chomsky, Marko. He’s depressing, and you’re falling for all his negativity. He can illuminate to certain aspects of US society, but you have to look at the positives to get a clearer picture. Something as complex as economics is never black and white. Only shades of gray.

[gh]

You dont have to be too much of a student of history to see when the military industrial complex will be broken. It will break down when our reach exceeds our grasp. Just follow every empires history from the romans to the brits. Sooner or later it rots from within.

[BastrdSonOfElvis]

You guys are wasting your time with this discussion -- the robots will be taking over soon. Once we're exterminated they'll get along with one another quite nicely. Until the aliens enslave them of course.

Hey, Helio, ease up on the font, eh? Shouting never makes you right. I read the first three lines of your rant and my eyes starting bleeding.

Re the legalization of tha gunja/other substances and the release of drug offenders to ease prison overcrowding -- theres another industrial complex that isn't mentioned as much, the prison-industrial complex. One of the best ways to keep unemployment numbers down? Find a reason to throw them in jail. Another? Draft. Even worse? Build dams.

Anyone ever read "Aint Nobody's Business If You Do" by Peter McWilliams? Whichever side of the issue you're on it's a good read.

[marko]

Gh- Well said.

You dont have to be too much of a student of history to see when the military industrial complex will be broken. It will break down when our reach exceeds our grasp. Just follow every empires history from the romans to the brits. Sooner or later it rots from within.

Helio, Helio... calm dowm a bit. I seem to have hit a nerve. I somehow knew that it would be you who would write a long-winded diatribe... I just didn't know you would annoy the crap out of me by writing in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!

Helio, I understand why you defend the military industrial complex. We all have to find ways to justify our guiding ideologues. You make your living in this world by working for a company that depends on military gov't contracts, so its understandable that me claiming we need to dismantle the MIC would touch a nerve close to your home.

Imperialism defintion from Wikipedia

Imperialism is the forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial conquest establishing economic and political domination of other nations that are not its own colonies. Imperialism is often autocratic, e.g. in early 20th century Japan,[2] and sometimes monolithic [3] in character. While the term imperialism often refers to a political or geographical domain such as the British Empire,[4] or the Russian Empire,[5] it can equally be applied to domains of knowledge, beliefs, values and expertise, such as the empires of Science,[6][7] Christianity[8] or Islam.[9]

How is Iraq not a... "forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial conquest establishing economic and political domination of other nations"?
Helio, why is it that we aren't told about the 14 military bases being built in Iraq? Does that match Washingtons rhetoric of establishing an Iraqi democratic gov't and then leaving them to prosper? 14 military bases and the largest US embassy ever built? Doesn't that sound like an imperial occupation to you?

A large part of our national wealth is giving to the military budget. America has 737 military bases throughout the world. Why the need for so many?This is all done in the name of security, and yet we are quickly losing all of our security here in America. Real security is the security people need when they get to the age when they want to stop working and are able to. Or the security that all people need to be able to deal with their medical problems without incurring huge bills that they can't pay. The security of having work when you need it. The security that children need to grow up in healthy environments. That kind a security is put aside in favor of an ever growing militarization of this country.

As for the rest of your diatribe.... BastardSonofElvis is right in that this discussion is a waste of time. Arguing with YOU is a waste of my time. It's like trying to argue with a Christian who feels his religion is the ONLY way, and all of the other 3/4 of the worlds people are just "lost souls." So, let's keep it simple. You keep hugging your idealogues and I will keep hugging mine. And notice how I didn't feel the need to lower myself to name calling. Sure, you annoy the hell out of me and I think you are an arrogant fucking jackass, but I would never call you that... opps i guess i just did...feels good, doesn't it?

Later

[gh]

Looking at helio's note I dont think he is in all caps. Just using a special font for a special boy.

[TakemetotheRiver]

I guess I'm not the only one on a mission with the whiskey tonight. Or maybe the aggression is due to something else. I was feeling like you all were having a healthy debate and I was certainly learning a lot. Not that I agree with any of you (well, maybe Marko, although you are as much of an idealist as I am).

Ridding the world of the MIC will be impossible without a complete revamping of the system. As gh said, we are at the height of our empirical cycle and we will fall as every other empire has. The point is to be ready to do the right thing and create a better system when it happens. I know I'm going to be slammed for this, but here's the truth:

Those of us with the willpower and information and the means will be able to sway the ignorant masses to create a better system.

In my not-so-humble opinion, that would involve smaller communities working together for the common good (yes, that's the definition of anarchy), removing large governments, returning to a trade and barter system in which everyone has something to contribute, free healthcare and education (i.e. socialism), and everyone go out and hug a fucking tree (especially you Helio). Before you slam me, consider this (and Marko- this is in response to your "this discussion is a waste of time comment"):

I don't have all the answers, nor would my system work easily or smoothly, but at least it's forward thinking. The point is to keep working it out. The most valuable lesson I've learned as a teacher is that collaboration is key to creating better lessons. No intelligent discussion is pointless when we obviously sit on the brink of making big changes- maybe even those with caspermike . Once again we can "exercise our constitutional right or our revolutionary right" but it's up to us.

Originally Posted by gh

Looking at helio's note I dont think he is in all caps. Just using a special font for a special boy.

[marko]

I went on a whiskey binge last night. So, todays aggression is just me finally not holding back on how I truly feel about Helio's arrogant diatribe. In the past I tried to be nice and today I just could care less and decided to let it out.

It amazes me how people react to other opinions that lie outside of our accepted cultural norms and ideas. I say bad things about a gov't who invades another country and out comes the "commie" and "bleeding heart tree hugging fag" comments. I actually find it to be kind of a robotically rehearsed response.

"Thus we grow up in a society where our choice of ideas is limited and where certain ideas dominate: We hear them from our parents, in the schools, in the churches, in the newspapers, and on radio and television. They have been in the air ever since we learned to walk and talk. They constitute an American ideology-that is, a dominant pattern of ideas. Most people accept them, and if we do, too, we are less likely to get into trouble.

The dominance of these ideas is not the product of a conspiratorial group that has devilishly plotted to implant on society a particular point of view. Nor is it an accident, an innocent result of people thinking freely. There is a process of natural (or, rather unnatural ) selection, in which certain orthodox ideas are encouraged, financed, and pushed forward by the most powerful mechanisms of our culture. These ideas are preferred because they are safe; they don't threaten established wealth or power." -Howard Zinn

TakemetotheRiver, I whole-heartedly agree with you about "No intelligent discussion is pointless when we obviously sit on the brink of making big changes."

[BastrdSonOfElvis]

I don't think anyone is on the brink of making any great changes (robots excluded of course). World keeps turnin. The rich stay rich and barring a lottery/law suit win the poor stay poor. Nations/tribes/gangs fight for a variety of reasons. People starve.

We can put people on the moon. We can see into the farthest reaches of space. We can put organs from animals into our fellows and they survive. We can split atoms. Yet our society has not evolved past bloodshed and the kind of inequity that sees children go blind.

There have been idealists since the dawn of civilization. They've hung, burned at stakes, been shot, and finally ridiculed on internet forums. If they're lucky all they'll get for their trouble is a broken heart when they come to the realization that nothing is going to change.

I can empathize. The idea of constructive change is seductive. Of true justice and equity. Sure, sometimes small concessions are slowly made by those that rule - emancipation, suffrage, civil rights. But what does it really change? LIfe's too short to beat your head against the Wall for too long.

Disillusionment complete.

And our empire. Huh. There's a picture in my office of a group of storm troopers erecting an American flag, Iwo Jima style. I cut it out of Stars and Stripes. I think the irony is wasted on most of the intended audience. Made me laugh, though. Yeah, the pundulum will swing. America won't be the sweetest anymore but big deal. The Brits are still doing pretty well. Just look at the pound sterling v. the dollar. Shit, the Euro is stronger than both and the continental empires were deconstructed long before that. Rome? Pretty nice. So our empire crumbles. Boo hoo. Stay home. The Rockies are the sweetest place you'll ever see anyway.

[gh]

BSOE, I have reached somewhat of the same jaded state that you are in but I still have some hope that things will improve.
I have been wondering if we will see the return of the union. I have never been a fan of them but I do see their purpose. There have been several instances in the past where the rich ran over the average person and the only thing that put a dent in that was the union. Of course eventually they misused their power but it was a change in the balance. I am not sure unions can have the same power today as in the past due to it being so easy to offshore just about any job but if history repeats then it does seem feasible.

[heliodorus04]

I had an 18 year old say to me that he recognized his own maturity when he listened to an argument and was pursuaded to change his position. My response to him was that the real mark of maturity is knowing when you don't need to argue at all... If you don't need to argue, don't.

I myself am not trying to pursuade anyone of anything. To quote a favorite line from the movie "The Thin Red Line", "It's not necessary for you to tell me that I'm right. We'll assume it." I'm not sure whether I'm smarter than you, Marko, but I'm definitely a better writer, and thus a better debater.

Marko, you seem to stick to sources that tell you what you already want to believe. I have a saying... "Be careful what you want to believe, because wanting to believe something will make you lie to yourself."

My livelihood isn't dependent on the military-industrial complex. It's dependent on my ability to think.

I'm just as comfortable making my money writing software documentation, aircraft maintenance manuals (that'd be civilian aircraft) or satellite tracking maintenance reports. I'm a writer - it's something I'm good at. As long as English is a crappy language, I have a job. And every year the education system graduates another class of kids in which most can't read or write a clear thought, my salary opportunities go up.

To answer your point about imperialism:
I see no economic servitude of the Iraqis to the United States. In that strict sense, it's not imperialism. You're quick-hit Wiki search for what imperialism is does construct an argument that I can lean towards saying, alright, WTF, we'll call it imperialism.

That being said, I do believe my record is consistent in saying the IRaq occupation 1) was a mistake, and 2) is not worth continuing regardless of consequence.

I'm not really interested in making enemies among the kayaking community, so that's all I really need to say. Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem walking away from an argument in which other parties are convinced my positions are asenine. I'd rather they not think that I'm an asshole, but this is the internet. I really can't control other people's visceral reactions to my mannerisms in presenting ideas.

Marko, I think your ideas come from the nihilistic, tree-hugging-fag* line of thinking. I don't think you're one, necessarily (I don't know you, thus the qualifier).

Remember that Utopia is the Latin word for "nowhere"