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Old 11-02-2006   #71
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
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I admited that we need spending on some social programs such as education, infrastructure, etc. But yes I believe that spending on welfare, social security, etc are sunk costs. Lets take social security for example. I am paying for it now, but I sure as shit ain't gonna get anything substantial for it in the future. And for the record, I don't believe I mentioned anything about the war in this thread, or at all. But thanks for calling me out. I think whether you supported it at the beginning or not is irrelevant at this point. IMO, I think that like Vietnam, the war in Iraq was begun based on a set of assumptions that at the time had most convinced that invading Iraq was the proper thing to do. However, facts and circumstances have a way of changing, and now the war doesn't seem nearly as attractive (not that any war is attractive) to most people. However, I don't believe that we should cut and run. Like Rush said I think we should stop letting the media run a PC war. (BTW, I have boated with him: S Mineral, Crystal Gorge to name a few) As long as we are there, we should do things properly and bomb the whole damn country into submission, until they are groveling at our knees. Then we can figure out a plan for turning the country back over to the Iraqies. It worked in WWII with the Germans. They couldn't even breath without our permission when that war was over, and it took a long time for them to become a productive part of the world again, but it happened. (the subjegation of the German people, men, women and children is a FACT) Now, most on this sight will argue that I am wrong, I am a heartless bastard, and I don't understand the middle east. That's fine, but I do understand that history teaches us something about wars. The side that kills the most people wins the war. We are there now, and whether you supported the war at the beginning, and support it now, or never wanted anything to do with it, I don't think that anyone wants to leave Iraq a quagmire which will continue to destabilize the middle east, and I don't think that anyone wants our troops over there any longer than necessary, or to spend any more money over there. So my stance on the war is simple, I want to get out as soon as possible, in the right way, and that means winning outright.
Yours truely,
Chris Morrison

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Old 11-02-2006   #72
I'm wrong 50% of the time
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RFV, Colorado
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Posts: 857
CGM - define winning outright to me?
I seem to be confused. How can we win against an invisible(lo-profile) enemy.

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Old 11-02-2006   #73
Join Date: Nov 2005
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inspiring book

Not really wanting to jump into this mess but I jump only to recommend an inspiring book on an American climber who now works building schools and other development projects in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Three Cups of Tea. About the power of one to make a difference in this big messed up world. In the midst of all this diatribe about hate, death, and evil.....someone is out there really making a difference crossing over all the cultural, national, and religious barriers used by all sides to justify war, differences, good/bad judgement, etc.

If you feel you need a little hope, check it out.

Peace on and off the river ya'll.
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Old 11-02-2006   #74
Denver, Colorado
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To be honest, I don't personally know how to win against a low profile (guerrilla style/terrorist) enemy as I am not a war strategist. But I think it would have to take some very drastic measures that would not be very palatable to most people. I think that a step in the right direction is to get the media out of the army's way.
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Old 11-02-2006   #75
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CGM, I don't think getting the media out of the way is a good idea. I for one don't feel comfortable with the idea of letting the current group in charge go on without any media coverage. No reason for me to list the impeachable actions Dubya has commited as everyone should be aware of them by now. What do you think they would do if no one was looking?

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Old 11-02-2006   #76
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Golden, Colorado
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All I'm saying is that if you're man enough to criticize a vet who served his country (you started this thread, brother), then you should have at least been man enough to serve it in the past, or ready to serve it today in its time of need. The fact is, your excuses have ranged from:

1. Your colorblindness, which we determined is hooey
2. Your wife, who I'm surprised would not understand that there are tens of thousands of military wives making the same sacrifices for Country
3. Your Boss, who would have a real PR problem in not supporting a National Guardsman
4. a fictional divorce lawyer
5. a fictional foreclosed house (Military housing not good enough for ya, I guess)
5. Your 'fat ass'

Anything else you wanna add to the list? Polynodial cysts on your bum? Married gays assaulting the homeland? You've made a long-winding argument about how you're too good to serve, and someone else should do the fighting for you. That's a fact; you can't dispute it, so you fall back on the insults and name-calling. That fine with me- at least I'm not completely hollow in my beliefs.

Just shows us that you got nothing, buddy. You're just another a contridictory keyboard neo-conservative, without the ability to put Country before Party.
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Old 11-02-2006   #77
Join Date: Jan 2006
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That is complete Bullshit El Flaco. John Kerry directly insulted every military person again. This is not new he has been doing it for years. One of the major reasons for the Swiftboat Vetrans for Truth that helped stop his feeble attempt to run for President. I do not need to be in the Military to know an insult and comment on one. He can try to insist he mispoke or whatever bullshit spin he is trying to put on it. The good thing about it is we won't have to worry about Kerry again. I liked the fact he just gave up stumping after he made an ass out of himself.
Such a long long time to be gone and a short time to be there..... GD
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Old 11-02-2006   #78
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Chris (CGM)-

I appreciate your honest assessment of the war and your opinions regarding what has to be done, but I would argue that it's just not sustainable. I'm not military strategist either, but 'bombing them into submission' is not viable by economic, military, or practical standards. What you're talking about is Genocide- because you're not dealing with armies. You'd have to kill a majority of the population in Iraq, because the street vendor that waved at you during the day is the same guy who's building the roadside bomb. Talk about destabilization- if we began that kind of campaign against the Iraqi people, we'd soon be fighting Iran; and we would likely lose the already-weak support of Muslims that area and around the world... of which there are 1.5 billion.

If you've found a military strategy that shows this can be accomplished with our existing military and our current economic resources, I'd like to see it. I'm certain I won't agree with it, but I'm always open to listening to reason and having an educated discussion. We've discussed the correlative with Germany in the past, and I just don't think it works as a model- it's an entirely different environment and situation. http://www.mountainbuzz.com/viewtopi...11122&start=75

The real question is- Is that the America that we want; one that kills hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of leaving as 'victors'? Is that the Iraq that we promised them? There is a reason that military guys are calling this unwinnable. Many democrats (including Kerry and Clinton) are complicit in making this mistake, and personally don't think those should be rewarded with a presidency -another discussion for another time. And the withdrawl strategies (and if you're married to the Cut-and-Run talking point, we'll use that) are not a 'win" either. But winning at the expense of American ideals (liberty, self-determination) is not worth the fight either.

For the record- I'm for the Murtha plan of re-deployment.
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Old 11-02-2006   #79
Georgia Moonshine
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Murtha Plan: Redeploy somewhere else in the mid-east, like Korea

The general needs a lesson in geography.

When did I insult Kerry's war record? As a Senator he is a joke, but he served in SE Asia and should be respected for that. As for his "Winter Soldier" allegations against his fellow vets, well, he can answer to the Navy and his comrades for that.

Talk to my wife about consenting to let me enlist. BTW when I said, "Boss" I meant her, not my employer. My employer would and does hold jobs for reservists. And will you represent me in the divorce procedings?

Please tell the Dr. At the USMMA that I am OK to go back to the Academy, I know they would take your word for it, after all, you know everything.
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Old 11-02-2006   #80
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Deflect back onto the talking point, Rushis. Keep speaking as if that Talking Point is the truth.

I'm pretty sure it's not worth arguing with you because you've never supported your arguments with pesky 'facts', but I'll throw a couple out there. Here's a poll of Iraq and Afghanistan Vets- if anyone, they are entitled to their opinions:


As for Kerry, Here's his record with the IAVA: http://capwiz.com/iava/bio/?id=298&lvl=C&chamber=S
Again, I'll wager that these folks are a bit more entitled to their opinions that you or Bobber are. Trout, here's your GOP boys from Georgia:
Chambliss: http://capwiz.com/iava/bio/?id=197&s...14&submit.y=10

Isakson: http://capwiz.com/iava/bio/?id=698&s...=13&submit.y=8

Nice work supporting the troops there in Georgia.

In Colorado:
Allard: http://capwiz.com/iava/bio/?id=679&s...=17&submit.y=5
Salazar: http://capwiz.com/iava/bio/?id=31624...=13&submit.y=6

So keep voting Republican, if you want to spit on the troops more than Kerry has.

It's too bad that guy has the habit of misspeaking. I think his intentions are good, but he's got too much baggage. His history with Vietnam will always sit poorly with some Veterans, even though I think his words are historically taken out of context and used against him...especially by folks like you, who didn't serve.

For the record- He would not be my choice for a presidential nominee. Neither would Hillary.

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