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Old 11-01-2006   #61
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
Does anybody ever wonder if the debate between the Democrats and the Republicans kind of focuses on a very narrow range of topics? Nobody seems to address the real issues? Both parties seem to play the game of high school antics, and nothing ever really happens. I think they want it this way... http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041029.htm The corporate media has a field day with this "politico drama", all the while accomplishing its main objective - making billions of dollars. Nobody ever seems to ask real questions. Media pundits, like Bill O'Reilly, only ask questions like, "Don't you support our troops?", or "Don't you want America to win in Iraq?" Nobody seems to realize that these questions lack intelligence and are completely meaningless because; if you are an American, can you really be against our troops? Who can be against the yellow ribbon? What these vacuous questions accomplish is diverting your attention away from the real questions. You know... like: How can we fix the serious ecological problems that we face today? What are we going to do about the impending doom of the economic collapse because of the severe deficit? Or, issues like this... http://www.opednews.com/articles/ope...e_middle_c.htm

Or, here is a question that never seems to be discussed in politics or the media: Why do these "terrorists" hate us so much? So much so that they would kill themselves while trying to inflict horrible things upon us, like 9/11? And these are the answers that Bush and the media give us: "They are Evil", “They are barbaric (and somehow we aren’t because we kill people by using “smart bombs”) and of course let’s not forget that "they hate our freedoms." And with these answers the jingoistic congregation of depoliticized Americans just nods their heads and gobbles up this black and white answer - without thinking - and replies: "Oh, gee, I get it! It's good vs. evil, just like in the Bible. Ah, shucks those guys must have sold themselves to the devil. Well, golly, we better put on our fightin' boots and stop those evil men." Let's really think about that "why they hate us" question. Use yourself as an example: If you really hate somebody, let's say at work; why do you hate this person? Your hate or dislike usually originates with something they did. You just didn't wake up one morning, become evil, and say, "I hate John, because of his freedoms." Let's try to put some rational into the thinking.

Rushis Right, sorry, but I am going to use you as an example. I am not trying to offend you or step on your toes...sorry if I do. Your post kind of gives us the typical response from the average citizen of the United States of Amnesia (to use Gore Vidals words). My assumption is that you don't know much about of the Middle East and the past 100 or so years of its history. Because if you did you most likely wouldn't still believe that this war is to "protect us." Read about the aftermath of WWI, TE Lawrence and the imperial ambitions of Britain and France, read about the Iran/Iraq War and discover who supplied Saddam with WMD's during this war. Read about US planners in the 1940's and there talks about oil being a "stupendous source of strategic power." And, that is just the tip of the iceberg. And, to respond to your statement about Iraqis being better off without Saddam, this is an excerpt from a great essay by Robert Fisk about the mess in the Middle East.
I still recall an Iraqi friend, shaking his head at my naivety when I asked if there was not any cup of generosity to be bestowed on the West for ridding Iraqis of Saddam's presence. "You supported him," he replied. "You supported him when he invaded Iran and we died in our tens of thousands. Then, after the invasion of Kuwait, you imposed sanctions that killed tens of thousands of our children. And now you reduce Iraq to anarchy. And you want us to be grateful?"
You can read this entire essay here… http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=11153 Then continue by reading his book, "The Great War for Civilization" It is about 1000 pages of unbelievable stories and descriptions of this guys life as a journalist in the Middle East since about the late 70's. This is a guy who sat down and talked with Osama, Arafat, and many others. His empirical knowledge will change the way you see and understand the Middle East. Then don't stop there... keep going... keep on reading. Dig for the truth. It is hard work finding the truth these days, but it is available. The corporate media will not help you to find this truth. The gov’t hypocrisy will ring loudly in your ear as the truth starts to shine from beneath the vile crap that it has been buried under for way too long.

Also, just so nobody can SPIN my post, what I write isn't anti-American; it is anti-gov't. I love America and its people. I loathe the current gov't and it's croanies for their belligerent imperialist policies, and their blantant dismantling of a once great American Democracy.

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Old 11-01-2006   #62
Seattle, Washington
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 207
Originally Posted by Rushis Right
Yonder Iv'e missed you. Yes I boat and have boated for a while. This is my only handle and I do have a posse. Ive boated with quite a few buzzards as well. Many of them libs like yourself. Some know who I am some don't. I tend not to talk politics with friends that are on the opposite side it tends to become vitriolic and I would rather just boat and hang out rather than turn a good day into an argument. The fact is I have my mind made up and so do most liberals about what is right. I am open minded on many however there are certain things that are a constant in party politics. I agree with the majority of the repulican party although they could be a little more conservative for my taste.
My guess would be that it becomes vitriolic because of the manner in which you conduct yourself.

On another note, since Rushis Right has boated with many buzzards, can someone step forward and admit to being a regular boater of his- besides someone with a gay political name?

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Old 11-01-2006   #63
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
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Posts: 316
Props to mark for making his point. I dont know you but I respect you for the way that you made your point.

ben rodda
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Old 11-02-2006   #64
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Thought-criminal, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
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Posts: 989
1. Mark Olsen is the shit.
2. The conservatives could be a little more conservative for my tastes, too:
fiscally conservative
conservative of life
conservative of liberty
conservative of the environment.

I don't see anything conservative about these so-called neo-cons. Maybe they think the prefix "neo" means "not at all".

I wonder how many bush bashing banners troops would hold up for a camera if they wouldn't be court marshalled for it?

cock-bobber..you're a putz. I'll tell you the same thing I tell my dad (he's old, too): "If you think the war is so cool, come and take my place and let me go home." Oh, I have a wife, too, dooshbag.

Rushiswrong, as always, you're a moron. Why does anyone even entertain this dumbass? If you guys are that bored...masterbate. At least that's productive..from a secretory standpoint.

Did anyone know that the vast majority of KBR employees over here are from India? I don't know how much they make, but I'm pretty sure it aint much. Go go stock dividends!
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 11-02-2006   #65
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Boulder, Colorado
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Posts: 2,032
Ok, my election month rant:

I couldn't handle thorougly reading 5 pages of this dribble, but I don't think anyone's bothered to point out that nobody is interpreting the joke correctly. What the original text of the speech read was:

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

If you still don't get it, it was a knock on president Bush's intellectual fortitude and was not directed at the troops at all. So what's the point of this blitz of attention from the right wing media? It's multifaceted, but it's an easy way to push a political agenda and to commoditize votes. You oversimplify issues so the lowest common denominator can understand. People can take an easy stand for and against. The dialog required for a healthy democracy to function is replaced by entertainment in the form of a political sporting event.

Ultimately, so called "news" and "political debate" become an overwrought diatribe regarding whether or not the interpretation of someone's words is or isn't what the person obviously did not intend to say.

Most people agree the war has been handled poorly. Those who don't are unlikely to change their minds barring dramatic new developments. Let's move the discussion to what we should be doing to bring peace and stability to Iraq. We don't need debates between political pundits. We need dialog between trained military stategistics and experts in Middle Eastern society, history, and politics to help us understand the complexities of the region and how we can use this knowledge to extricate ourselves from the current quagmire.

Furthemore, BSOE is wrong. Rush is right. It just depends on how you define right.

Don't forget to legalize mar-a-ja-wana.
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Old 11-02-2006   #66
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254
oh come on ksc - i get a kick out of rush/cgm/troutb. - at least hearing these guys rationalize the war, jump on kerry for some statement while at the same time avoiding the bigger issues like you and marko bring up, and spout their point of view is quite entertaining.

I think so many of us are soured by this topic because the right wing people in power have failed on so many accounts - and finally they have this one piece of "news" to make them feel good about the people and policies that they support.

I'd like to hear more from cgm about how any social program is a waste and should not be supported, while this war is a great thing. maybe if cgm realizes that we are "nation building" he will change his mind....
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Old 11-02-2006   #67
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Boulder, Colorado
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maybe if cgm realizes that we are "nation building" he will change his mind....
You're way off there. Bush does not support nation building, and I have it on good authority he's not a flip-flopper.

Anyway Steve Kahn, if that is your real name, I hear you get a kick out of the McLaughlin group as well. That pretty much kills your credibility as a purveyor of good taste.
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Old 11-02-2006   #68
Georgia Moonshine
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 173
Hmmm... you mean I should enlist, against the wishes of my non-working spouse, cut my income by 4/5's to satisfy El Flaco...... Even if I did, they would prolly put a fat old man like myself behind a desk stateside or in Quatar.

At which point, my house would be forclosed on, my soon to be ex's lawyer would be sending me papers to sign and El Flatulo would be berating me that I was not a real combat soldier.

Think I will stay stateside and NOT go to anti-american peacenick, nitwit rallys that only give encouragement to the terrorists. Not to mention listen to my wife rather than some admin with delusions of god-hood.

And yes, I was waiting for one of you wing-nuts to quote or give a link to Choamsky (a defense contractor BTW).
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Old 11-02-2006   #69
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254
TB -

this is what i'm talking about!!! - this is great stuff man -

peace rally's - only help to support the terrorists. and definately anti-american!!! -

of course, a true american would only wish for war to keep the economy alive and well!!! -

you guys can do better yet - lets have some of the "if you're not voting republican you're a socialist stuff - weak liberals - with us or against - islam or christian - make a choice and stick with it - corporations and the free market will take care of everything" - i love this black and white world you live in.

is numbers really a III at low water? - this is too confusing. either it is or it isn't, right? how can there be debate on this very easy question. the war is either good or bad, right? no inbetween for you guys.

cgm, i'm still waiting to hear your support of a nation building war...

ksc - you're a waterton shit eating bitch.
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Old 11-02-2006   #70
I'm right 50% of the time
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 857
MarkO - Thanks for being REAL
Flaco - Again comming with good points
BSOE - Man, I feel for you. Stay safe and pass on our good will to the guys and gals that you see

Lets vote our on our Consciousness.

as an assiude, anybody want to talk about real issues like
CO 39 - School District spending
CO 41 - Standards of Conduct in Govenment - gifts
CO 42 - Colorado Minimum Wage - Permanent Wage Increases Bassed on Inflation
CO 43 - Marriage as Man and Woman
CO 44 - Marijuana
Ref H - Limiting State Business Income Tax Deductions - for businesses that deduct wages and compensation paid to unauthorized aliens
Ref I - Domestic Partnerships

NORM 4 Prz 08

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