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Old 11-03-2006   #101
gunnison, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1998
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There are facts in this discussion? I thought all the real information concerning war, especially The War on Terror (Registered Trademark, GOP, 2001-2006), was classified.

I don't like the Iraq situation. I blame red man for not fighting off whitey when he had the chance, no, I blame myself for making and spending money, too. .. No .. scratch that.. It's all my fault, got any food in that trash can, man?

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Old 11-03-2006   #102
pnw, Washington
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"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 11-03-2006   #103
Vail, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
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Rushisright wrote:

America will come together probably sooner rather then later. I wonder what exactly it is going to take? It will be interesting to see what side of the fence the majority of Americans will be on when that happens
Not to really get into this whole who is who, who can bash the other party, childish antics and awesome displays of who can surf the net the best and gather data and stats.

Rush: America was together, via 911. Goerge and his administration separtated it by their actions in the middle east. Now, you can attempt to insult me and drag me into this mess of a thread that will end up nowhere but the statement is a plain and simple fact you CANNOT refute.

Lets get our troops home and safe without f%cking up the good citizens of Iraq. PEACE. SteveZ
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Old 11-03-2006   #104
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 112
Interesting question Tim:
Leaving now and letting Iraq spiral into chaos certainly poses a moral dilemna b/c we started the mess. However, the current siutation should not be a surprising because there were plenty of indviduals prior to the invasion that predicted this very situation. Cheney and Bush though had blinders on and refused to see or hear anything that did not support their version of "the truth."

However, we first owe a duty to our own country and people. Leaving Iraq will stop us from sending billions of dollars of cash down the tube, we can refocus on Afghanistan which should have been the focus all along, and we re-strenghten our military b/c the world appears to be getting crazier. Right now, if something were to happen in N. Korea lets say - I doubt we'd be able to adequately respond. At some point we may need to go back to that area, but hopefully next time we go with the support of the world - like we did in Afghanistan. B/c of Iraq and the way this administration has conducted itself we have totally lost our moral position in this world and that is not good. So I'm sure there will be many that say we are morally obligated to stay, but our moral position is already at an all time low. Get out now, and start rebuilding it. It's not going to get any better over there, so why stay?

Some may call the a pessimistic view - However there's a big difference between pessismism and realism. And I believe those who think this thing is "winnable" in any sense of the word are simply refusing to look at the situation with any reality. Optimism has its place, but at the end of the day reality needs to be the paramount consideration.

It's like running a class V rapid - sure I can have all the optimism in the world and see the line, but if I don't feel it on that day or in reality I know my skill level is not there - I shoulder the boat and walk. That's what we need to do Iraq: get real and be honest. Unfortunately for our troops, we know we have a president who has a difficult time with reality.
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Old 11-03-2006   #105
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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Molly Ivins hit the nail on the head when she said that "watching the Bush Administration conduct foreign policy is like watching someone play chess who only thinks about one move at a time."
Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 11-03-2006   #106
Denver, Colorado
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matobs: well said.

Tim: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...raq-dead_x.htm

600,000 is a disputed number that came from a study that was done by John Hopkins University. Who's estimates are right? No clue... Bottom line: This mess was created by very bad US foreign policy. One must also take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.... Unless you have no integrity.

Alright, I have spent way too much time on this post.

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Old 11-04-2006   #107
Bugtussle, Kentucky
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 161
You crazy liberals. Throwing around facts wont get you anywhere. It's beating a dead horse. Fortunately, the repubs are beating themselves.
Their candidates are hilarious. Now it's "I support the president, but I don't want him to "help" with my campaign." Interesting. I recall, not very long ago, these same candidates spouting off about how their party is one cohesive unit. Now they preach about their "independence", and try to distance themselves from Bush, one of the most unpopular presidents in history.

It's refreshing to see that the majority of Americans are waking up and not falling for the republicans fear game anymore. The dems want to befriend the terrorists and invite them into your homes! A vote for a liberal is a vote for the enemy! Ha. Amazingly people fall for this crap.

Wherever you stand politically, get out and vote. Politics may be a joke, but it sure is fun to bitch about.
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Old 11-04-2006   #108
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Insulting Our Troops, and Our Intelligence

George Bush, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld think you’re stupid. Yes, they do.

They think they can take a mangled quip about President Bush and Iraq by John Kerry — a man who is not even running for office but who, unlike Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, never ran away from combat service — and get you to vote against all Democrats in this election.

Every time you hear Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney lash out against Mr. Kerry, I hope you will say to yourself, “They must think I’m stupid.” Because they surely do.

They think that they can get you to overlook all of the Bush team’s real and deadly insults to the U.S. military over the past six years by hyping and exaggerating Mr. Kerry’s mangled gibe at the president.

What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to the U.S. military than to send it into combat in Iraq without enough men — to launch an invasion of a foreign country not by the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force, but by the Rumsfeld Doctrine of just enough troops to lose? What could be a bigger insult than that?

What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than sending them off to war without the proper equipment, so that some soldiers in the field were left to buy their own body armor and to retrofit their own jeeps with scrap metal so that roadside bombs in Iraq would only maim them for life and not kill them? And what could be more injurious and insulting than Don Rumsfeld’s response to criticism that he sent our troops off in haste and unprepared: Hey, you go to war with the army you’ve got — get over it.

Everyone says that Karl Rove is a genius. Yeah, right. So are cigarette companies. They get you to buy cigarettes even though we know they cause cancer. That is the kind of genius Karl Rove is. He is not a man who has designed a strategy to reunite our country around an agenda of renewal for the 21st century — to bring out the best in us. His “genius” is taking some irrelevant aside by John Kerry and twisting it to bring out the worst in us, so you will ignore the mess that the Bush team has visited on this country.

Let Karl know that you’re not stupid. Let him know that you know that the most patriotic thing to do in this election is to vote against an administration that has — through sheer incompetence — brought us to a point in Iraq that was not inevitable but is now unwinnable.
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Old 11-04-2006   #109
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The majority of IAVA stances are for Veteran specific voting not the entire stance on the war. This is rated as well off the stance of IAVA in relation to the Senators or Congressmen. So as you guys like to say IT IS OBVIOUS that the IAVA take the democratic side of things. Thanks for pointing them out that will be another group I will not be donating my money to.

OK- saw the link, and I'm not sure what the problem is. They're VETERANS of IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN, and an examination of a Congressman's votes on veteran's affair certainly is a prime indicator of how they feel about sending troops to battle; because if they understood the consequences of war to these men and women, then they had better support them in the aftermath.

Here's the list of criteria they used for grading:
Voted against allocating $2,000,000 for research into the treatment of brain injuries, a very common injury among Iraq veterans.

Voted against providing eligibility for retired pay for non-regular military service.

Voted against providing $1,975,183,000 for medical care for Iraq veterans.

Voted against protecting servicemembers and veterans from means testing in bankruptcy.

Voted against assuring that funding is provided for veterans health care each fiscal year to cover increases in population and inflation.

Voted against reducing the age for receipt of military retired pay for nonregular service from 60 to 55.

Voted against prohibiting profiteering and fraud relating to military action, relief, and reconstruction efforts.

Voted against expressing the sense of Congress that the removal of Saddam Hussein enhanced the security of Israel and other United States allies.

Voted against providing pay protection for members of the Reserve and the National Guard.
YEah, those are some sinister spending bills. As for the 'argument that these republican senetors and Congressmen were 'trimming the fat' - that's laughable. This GOP Congress and veto-less president are responsible for the number of earmarked (pork) bills going from 4300 in 2000 (when Clinton has the veto) to almost 10,000 this year (almost 14,000 last year).

Since the Veteran's group was too liberal for your tastes, I pulled this graph from the Heritage Foundation. Of course there are many Democrats that contribute to that misguided policy, but this is emphatically a GOP Congress. They have taken the largess of prior Democratic Congresses to another level:


In fact, I'd suggest that you take a look at this series of graphs from the Heritage Foundation and get a good look at what the GOP has done for fiscal responsibility: http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...harts_C/c1.cfm

If you want to take the argument that "The Democrats did it too", I'll absolutely agree. But that doesn't make it right, and it was never to this extent, and certainly not in a time of war. It's criminal, and it's your tax dollars.
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Old 11-05-2006   #110
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,012
Originally Posted by marko
Does anybody ever wonder if the debate between the Democrats and the Republicans kind of focuses on a very narrow range of topics? Nobody seems to address the real issues? Both parties seem to play the game of high school antics, and nothing ever really happens. I think they want it this way... http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041029.htm The corporate media has a field day with this "politico drama", all the while accomplishing its main objective - making billions of dollars. Nobody ever seems to ask real questions. Media pundits, like Bill O'Reilly, only ask questions like, "Don't you support our troops?", or "Don't you want America to win in Iraq?" Nobody seems to realize that these questions lack intelligence and are completely meaningless because; if you are an American, can you really be against our troops? Who can be against the yellow ribbon? What these vacuous questions accomplish is diverting your attention away from the real questions. You know... like: How can we fix the serious ecological problems that we face today? What are we going to do about the impending doom of the economic collapse because of the severe deficit? Or, issues like this... http://www.opednews.com/articles/ope...e_middle_c.htm

Or, here is a question that never seems to be discussed in politics or the media: Why do these "terrorists" hate us so much? So much so that they would kill themselves while trying to inflict horrible things upon us, like 9/11? And these are the answers that Bush and the media give us: "They are Evil", “They are barbaric (and somehow we aren’t because we kill people by using “smart bombs”) and of course let’s not forget that "they hate our freedoms." And with these answers the jingoistic congregation of depoliticized Americans just nods their heads and gobbles up this black and white answer - without thinking - and replies: "Oh, gee, I get it! It's good vs. evil, just like in the Bible. Ah, shucks those guys must have sold themselves to the devil. Well, golly, we better put on our fightin' boots and stop those evil men." Let's really think about that "why they hate us" question. Use yourself as an example: If you really hate somebody, let's say at work; why do you hate this person? Your hate or dislike usually originates with something they did. You just didn't wake up one morning, become evil, and say, "I hate John, because of his freedoms." Let's try to put some rational into the thinking.

Rushis Right, sorry, but I am going to use you as an example. I am not trying to offend you or step on your toes...sorry if I do. Your post kind of gives us the typical response from the average citizen of the United States of Amnesia (to use Gore Vidals words). My assumption is that you don't know much about of the Middle East and the past 100 or so years of its history. Because if you did you most likely wouldn't still believe that this war is to "protect us." Read about the aftermath of WWI, TE Lawrence and the imperial ambitions of Britain and France, read about the Iran/Iraq War and discover who supplied Saddam with WMD's during this war. Read about US planners in the 1940's and there talks about oil being a "stupendous source of strategic power." And, that is just the tip of the iceberg. And, to respond to your statement about Iraqis being better off without Saddam, this is an excerpt from a great essay by Robert Fisk about the mess in the Middle East.
I still recall an Iraqi friend, shaking his head at my naivety when I asked if there was not any cup of generosity to be bestowed on the West for ridding Iraqis of Saddam's presence. "You supported him," he replied. "You supported him when he invaded Iran and we died in our tens of thousands. Then, after the invasion of Kuwait, you imposed sanctions that killed tens of thousands of our children. And now you reduce Iraq to anarchy. And you want us to be grateful?"
You can read this entire essay here… http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=11153 Then continue by reading his book, "The Great War for Civilization" It is about 1000 pages of unbelievable stories and descriptions of this guys life as a journalist in the Middle East since about the late 70's. This is a guy who sat down and talked with Osama, Arafat, and many others. His empirical knowledge will change the way you see and understand the Middle East. Then don't stop there... keep going... keep on reading. Dig for the truth. It is hard work finding the truth these days, but it is available. The corporate media will not help you to find this truth. The gov’t hypocrisy will ring loudly in your ear as the truth starts to shine from beneath the vile crap that it has been buried under for way too long.

Also, just so nobody can SPIN my post, what I write isn't anti-American; it is anti-gov't. I love America and its people. I loathe the current gov't and it's croanies for their belligerent imperialist policies, and their blantant dismantling of a once great American Democracy.
Just wanted to say another great post, Marko. Kind of ironic that it's buried in eight pages of dem vs. republican name calling.

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