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Old 05-07-2013   #31
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
Originally Posted by hojo View Post
Come to think of it, if all companies had an intrinsic culture of safety, OSHA probably wouldn't exist. Too bad the few ruin it for the rest.
No, OSHA would still exist. It's a government agency. Harder to kill than a zombie vampire energizer bunny on crack.

But, you are right. The airlines learned all about culture of safety when a few crashes happened because of bad decisions in the cockpit. And the result is, you don't very often hear of fatal crashes involving US airlines anymore. In fact, flying on a commercial airline is safer than running river. I think it is. Probably it is.

Anyway, when airlines realized cockpit decisions in the end always had to be about safety, cause you know, its good for business and the right thing to do, they restructured their entire training programs for flight crews. And flight crews ate it up, cause you know, they are always the first people on the scene of a plane crash.

Of course, it still doesn't remove the human element. Did you know that flight crews on commercial airlines are still randomly tested for drugs and alcohol immediately before they fly? And some still fail? I mean, if you're a pilot, and about to launch a 737 across the country, and you have a buzz on because you were having a few too many at the Holiday Inn last night talking to that new flight attendant and you still strap in? Shit!

Sorry, I'm rambling

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Old 05-07-2013   #32
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
I don't really care to get in a tit for tat on this because I haven't had the chance to get all of the available information on this incident. But I would like to chime in on one thing in particular mentioned in this thread.

In regards to "rich white guys" nearly always escaping justice: The great thing about systemic analysis of the US, and attempting to get to the root of the issue here, is that you only need to go back a little over 200 years ago to the origins. America is one of the only societies in which it is possible "to witness the natural and tranquil growth of society." Whereas, in a country like, say, France, you have to go back much much further. It is something I learned when I read, and just quoted, Tocqueville's Democracy in America

While the Founding Fathers created many great things with the mass of their ideas they happened to retain and implement the English law system - an aristocratic system that is favorable to the rich and less so for those without resources. It has created endless stories of the "rich escaping justice" over and over again. As Hojo mentioned, this type of thing creates legitimate rage within the majority of the population whose sense of justice is offended by the legal course of action that usually, not always, takes place when those with power and money escape the full force of lady justice.

Now, hating the rich guy for getting rich is kind of a futile thing to do, but so is apologizing for them. However, there is every reason to shed light on and understand why rich people are more likely to escape justice. And for those who might object to this critique by suggesting that it's about jealousy should understand that they are not defending the wonders of the market system, or the success of the person in question; but are defending an aristocratic system of legislation.

Now, I will with hold my judgement on whether or not this is, or will be, the case with this Texas fertilizer plant owner because, again, I don't have the proper information.

Carry on...

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Old 05-07-2013   #33
hojo's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,234

Sorry, I'm rambling
It's ok, just relax and take a breath.
On the river, I can abandon who I am and what I've done. However brief it lasts, while on the river I am nothing important and everything insignificant. I am flotsam, and happy to be so.
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Old 05-08-2013   #34
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
My experience in rural Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Wyoming is that fertilizer storage and manufacture takes place in the small towns, where the farmers shop and pick up their goods. I know of only one twn where they had the sense to zone it to field outsided of town.

My experience in these municipalities is that they also do not have fire forces equiped to fight major fires of this sort, or those related to the oil and gas industry that has influxed to these same rural environments. While I have seen a couple local cheifs go to war and force foam and big time fire supresion at similar facilities, it is the exception and not the norm. I actually see more happening from the insurance side, where in order to get insurance, the carriers are demanding this stuff. It takes a pretty bold and dedicated local fire guy(often volunteer)to go to war on these issues.

While alot of the guys that own these sort of facilities are big fish in a small pond, most are not what I would consider rich. I mean it is not like they have Al Gore, Hllary Clinton, Barack Obama money, wall street connections and book deals. They are just families that have been there long enough that they started the feed store and fertilizer supply shop and then those grew faster than the Family Farm or Ranch.

If I were going to go class warfare on this, I would say the fight is one of property rights, zoning and common sense. Most rural towns have alot of the first and last, but zoning is largely an afterthought.
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Old 05-08-2013   #35
don't bogart that
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Frosted Flakes N of Baytuckey, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 180
OMG did you mention Zoning

The west hates zoning, how else can we foster generations of land rapers. Man, we have to go all over the world and rape minerals and start wars, can't be brought down with zoning in my back yard. Does that mean I can't put up a swing set or an oil rig? Right on!!!! I believe zoning could of saved lives

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