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Originally Posted by marko
]--no replies from me
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There's something a little specious about SAYING you're not going to reply. It comes across as though you are coming down from a mountain because you're annoyed at our ignorance; you'll take a brief moment to interrupt your quest for ultimate cognitive enlightenment, grace us with your presence, but not deign to deal with any confusion you cause, because after all, you're just too smart for us. But we're the dicks, though.
You could save us all the slight by just not replying, and avoid being so melodramatic about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko
He vetoed this bill because it goes against the conservative philosophy.
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Bush is no conservative. Well, Bush is no Reagan-esque conservative, which is the period in my life where I found my personal temperament went along with what conservatives of the time professed. The definition of a conservative has changed in the last 7 years to the point where it no longer looks like what it did in 1986, when it was recreating the world for the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko
It is the conservative plan itself that is at fault. The conservative party wants us to think he is a bumbling idiot.
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The conservative plan isn't being followed by Bush. His domestic/economic policies are more or less directed at certain sectors of the economy that he wants to protect. It's oligarchy, really. I feel inspired to defend "Reagan-era conservatism" because it was different, and it was good, and virtually all of the economic growth into then unheard of technology (computers, communications, to name but two) from Reagan's inauguration, which have driven our economy since then, are the result of Reagan's pursuit of real conservatism (again, that philosophy has been warped beyond recognition under this Bush).
I take some serious exception to your assertion of what a conservative is. I've never considered myself a conservative so much as I consider myself a Federalist. The Reagan-era conservative movement was founded, albeit very distantly by the 80s, of Federalism. What is Federalism? Well, in short, it's libertarianism that's grounded in the real world (in which people really don't want to take responsibility for their poor choices).
In any event, conservatism as I knew it would not have enacted the Medicare Prescription Drug benefit, would tackle means testing for Social Security, and would quit throwing money at problems where money has shown ineffective to solve the problems. The ultimate goal of Federalism is to leave people unhindered from unnecessary regulations so they can live their lives and solve their own problems. It has a good track record. Not spotless, but good.
Federalism and capitalism go hand in hand. Say what you like about capitalism, but it is the best economic system the world has yet thought of. And while one can look to Western Europe's socialism, the jury is out on their economic competitiveness in many key areas. I do wish I got six weeks of vacation, though, don't get me wrong. When one thinks of capitalism's problems and socialism's promise, I think the following quote, from an economist whose name I do not remember, sums thinks up perfectly:
"The problem with socialism is socialism. The problem with capitalism is capitalISTS."
(Translating the moral of this message for CasperMike, what the speaker is saying is that socialism creates a system by which all people are forced downward to some extent or another; Capitalism creates a system where everyone can move upward as their talents and desires allow, but some of those people will really go over the deep end trying to push down people around them to move upward).
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko
Centralizing power within the executive branch to an unprecedented level.
Suspended Habeus Corpus,
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These are the two I'm most disturbed about. Let's make sure that we talk about how this administration has LEGALIZED TORTURE.
- Centralizing power within the executive branch to an unprecedented level.
- Started 2 major wars, one with faulty intelligence and downright deceit.
-Placed 2 far-right Supreme Court justices and stacked many more on the lower federal levels.
- Cut taxes during wartime, an unprecedented thing.
-Passed many controversial bills, such as the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind, The National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive (A VERY SCARY ONE.. look it up), Suspended Habeus Corpus,
-Rolling back and refusing to enforce regulatory protections.
-appointing industry officials to oversee regulatory agencies (EPA, FDA)
-Establishing a greater role for religion through faith-based initiatives.
-Was re-elected. If your administration can keep themselves in power of one of the biggest empires the world has seen... then you are not incompetent. BTW-Many of these same Bush admin people have been in power since the Reagon Admin.
The CONSERVATIVE AGENDA. It has 3 fundamental tenets:
1) Individual initative, gov't role should be minimized outside of military and police.
2) President is moral authority
3) free markets are enough to allow freedom and opportunity.
The conservative vision is to "starve the beast" or shrink the gov't. The conservative rationale is that "you can spend your money better than your gov't can." Social programs are considered unnecessary since the primary role of the conservative philosophy is to defend the country and police it's interior. Things like Health care and Energy policy is left to individuals and the "free market." Given this philosophy is it any wonder that the gov't was NOT there for the victims of Katrina? This philosophy also sheds light as to why these conservatives don't believe in global warming. If they did they would have to implement regulations for environmental protections and so forth. Regulation goes against their philosophy and against the "free market."
As to the budget deficit. This is not incompetence. What better way than massive deficits to get rid a social programs because well.... "We just don't have the money for these programs anymore. Our national security is much more important than education and the health of our children." The deficit that the Bush admin created through massive tax cuts and a costly war will require drastic budget cuts to fix. As we all know these cuts will NOT come in the form of cuts in military spending. Nope... the budget cuts will come out of programs like FEMA, OSHA, FCC, EPA, etc. A huge success for the conservative philosophy.
IRAQ... I just can't debate this anymore until more people educate themselves on the issue and see beyond the lies of the Bush admin and the complicit deception of the American Mainstream Media. Part of the problem arises from a form of arrogance called "American exceptionalism." Howard Zinn wrote, "Our citizenry has been brought up to see our nation as different from others, an exception in the world, uniquely morale, expanding into other lands in order to bring civilization, liberty, and democracy. (Even though we don't have democracy and are losing freedom and liberty as we speak) He goes on to say that this self-deception started early with the first English settlers. They believed that the killing of Indians and the conquering of lands was approved by God and commanded by the Bible. This self-deception continues into present day. We can't even take care of our own and we arrogantly think we can reshape the geopolitics of the entire Mid-East with military might and the barrel of a gun. Zinn also writes, "One of the worst effects of Nationalism (American exceptionalism) is a loss of proportion. The killings of 2300 people at Pearl Harbor becomes the justification for killing 240,00 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The killing of 3000 people on 9/11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq..." (that number may now be reaching close to a million according to recent polls.) And even though you don't see or read about it in our crappy media, the majority of these deaths are innocent civilians. Only the lives of 3000 American people matter, the other million or so of Mid-East people killed just don't matter.
With that I will leave you --- AND NOT REPLY --- with this quote about American gov't from a man named Langston Hughes (this quote of course labeled him as Un-American.)
You really haven't been a virgin for so long
It's ludicrous to keep up the pretext...
You've slept with all the big powers
In military uniforms
And you've taken the sweet life
Of all the little brown fellas...
Being one of the world's biggest vampires
Why don't you come out and say so
Like Japan, and England, and France
And all the other nymphomaniacs of power.
Peace[/quote]
We just differ on what the "true" definition of conservatism means. I do agree that Bush is not like the "Barry Goldwater" of conservatism, but more of an extreme off-shoot of the original conservative philosophy. I kind of think that the Goldwater conservatism may be forever dead. To go one step further I also think most of the Democrats are also serving this same Oligarchy. 
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