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Old 06-11-2008   #1
gh

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Bush articles of impeachment, interesting

http://yellowcakewalk.net/articles_o...hment_bush.pdf
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Old 06-12-2008   #2
heliodorus04
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Unhelpful.
Glad the Michael Moore wing of the Democrat party has its Sir Galahad, but this kind of crap does the country no good.

Better bet:
Let Bush finish his 7 months and leave office.
If he sets foot outside of the US/Mexico, let Interpol arrest him for war crimes, for which he is certainly guilty.

Impeachment turned a mysoginist serial philanderer (and likely rapist) Bill Clinton into a sympathetic figure. You think that wouldn't happen if you impeached Bush?

I mean, I despise my ex-girlfriend, but you don't see me standing outside her condo calling her a whore, decrying her as a liar and a user for letting me buy all the dinners, and saying that the sex was bad. That'd make ME look like the asshole.

Let it go. It's the most efficient way to solve the problem.
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Old 06-12-2008   #3
DurangoSteve
 
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"Let it go?"

Actually, I'd rather see President Cheney facing treason charges. He's the REAL problem in this problematic administration. Shrub is just fucking Howdy Doody on strings.



Quote:
Originally Posted by heliodorus04 View Post
Unhelpful.
Glad the Michael Moore wing of the Democrat party has its Sir Galahad, but this kind of crap does the country no good.

Better bet:
Let Bush finish his 7 months and leave office.
If he sets foot outside of the US/Mexico, let Interpol arrest him for war crimes, for which he is certainly guilty.

Impeachment turned a mysoginist serial philanderer (and likely rapist) Bill Clinton into a sympathetic figure. You think that wouldn't happen if you impeached Bush?

I mean, I despise my ex-girlfriend, but you don't see me standing outside her condo calling her a whore, decrying her as a liar and a user for letting me buy all the dinners, and saying that the sex was bad. That'd make ME look like the asshole.

Let it go. It's the most efficient way to solve the problem.
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Old 06-12-2008   #4
gh

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Pelosi is against impeachment for both of those reasons. It is a waste of time and Cheney is actually scarier. This kind of thing does document W's actions and hopefully has a hangover affect that affects McCain who supports the war.
BTW, I think I saw you hanging out at your ex's condo just a couple months ago....asshole.
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Old 06-12-2008   #5
Livingston
 
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Not just prosecution overseas...

"A SEARING INDICTMENT
Famed prosecutor and #1 New York Times bestselling author Vincent Bugliosi has written the most powerful, explosive, and thought-provoking book of his storied career. As a prosecutor dedicated to seeking justice, he delivers a non-partisan argument, free from party lines, based upon hard facts and pure objectivity" -from the website

The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder

This is the guy who prosecuted Charles Manson and wrote Helter Skelter. He is persuading prosecutors who have lost soldiers in their districts to file murder charges against Bush.

Could this be one of the reasons the Bush family has purchased 100,000 acres in Paraguay? I believe Jenna facilitated the purchase while on her UNICEF tour in South America. Anyone know the significance of Paraguay (hint: google "extradition")? Could all be wacky leftist theories but interesting to read.

Dave Lindorff: The Bush Family's Bad Latin Real Estate Investment | BuzzFlash.org

Anyway, I disagree that we should "let this one go". We are a nation of laws. Precedent has significant impact on how our laws are interpreted. This is bad precedent. We don’t want any other president acting in this manner do we? I believe that impeachment (which is JUST the investigation) would likely lead to prosecution. This would go a long way to rebuilding our reputation in the world community.

-d
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Old 06-12-2008   #6
heliodorus04
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I should let this one go, but I can't. Blame it on boredom and loving the sound of my own voice (in print, so to speak).

I consider myself a pretty reasonable person. In 2002/2003, it was reasonable to believe Saddam Hussein's WMD program was either a)covertly operational or b)could quickly be made operational. Lest we forget, at that time, the Bush administration staked its strategy on the "1 percent rule" - which, if memory serves, goes like this: If a rogue state had a 1 percent chance of giving a WMD to a terrorist group, the US was justified in attacking that rogue state. The states in question were the 'Axis of Evil' nations from the State of the Union speech.

It sounded good to most Americans at the time (probably because we didn't account for the difficulties of occupation after a relatively quick, easy 'conventional' fight).

My primary objection to this impeachment proceeding is that it stinks of a moral absolutism that obliviates a rational perspective the majority of Americans held during 2002/2003.

To quote Andrew Sullivan:
Quote:
I'm not sure 'Bush Lied" has ever been a good way to look at what happened. Bush Misjudged. Bush Ignored Important Evidence. Bush Massaged The Truth. And so on. "Lied" isn't right - but the truth, not much better, doesn't fit on a poster.
I understand this sentiment (quoted anonymously):
Quote:
We know from Bob Woodward's reporting that Bush was himself shocked at the paucity of evidence, but chose to characterize manifestly flawed intelligence as strong. Whether that is lying is an ontological question that requires no absolute answer. If Bush was merely mistaken, he has paid next to nothing for an enormous error; amazingly, Americans re-elected him long after his Iraq adventure went south. If he was knowingly deceptive, the Press and official Washington have let him get away with monstrous war crimes. In any case, there is a dearth of outrage. The charge of lying is one way of indicating that Bush has not been held to account in a manner proportionate to the consequences of his failed leadership.
Again, maybe Bush 'lied,' knowingly. He certainly exaggerated to the point that I can't know whether he deliberately deceived because I can't look into his heart to see what's there. Even if I assume he has an evil heart (or he's mirroring Cheney's), impeachment doesn't do anything positive. More on that later.

But what impeachment does, in my opinion (and one in which I'm probably very isolated) is let off the hook Congress & the Press. Congress had its chance to say 'Not "no" but FUCK NO" to military operations in Iraq. In fact it's had it several times with appopriations special measures. It passed the buck to the executive. So impeachment looks "weasily" to me.

I'm not happy with the growth of Executive Power, and I am ESPECIALLY aggrieved by the executive excess of THIS administration (worst of my lifetime, and I'm 40), but the growth of Executive power coincides with the advent of mass media, and is the result of what I would call some of the pitfalls of the human experience, not because executives are nefarious grabasses.

The press, as much as anyone, let us all down after 9/11, and I'll let Marko deal with that aspect of this conversation because he's probably better qualified than I am to address it. Irrespective of that, I don't think any political force even could have stopped the invasion of Iraq in 2003, simply because the US reaction to 9/11 was human. It was human. In all its pageantry, excess, self-righteousness, and zeal. We wanted revenge, and we didn't care about the cost.

We got what we paid for. It's been excessively expensive. Bush's subesquent occupation 'strategy' will go down as one of the worst military blunders since Napolean invaded Russia (indeed, it may very well be seen by future historians as the first death rattle of America's economic empire -we shall see). His intransigence proved his incompetence, to the point that the American people slowly (at least in my case) became aware that something was wrong with what we'd done, and more quickly, attitudes about the war drove opinion against it. Unfortunately, the press doesn't bring us pictures of firefights and roadside bombs ever evening like they did during Vietnam. If only they did, our troops would be home by now... Or so I believe.

Another way to look at Bush's "Lying" about Saddam's WMD program (and I simply cannot overlook the fact that the top intelligence services from France, the UK, the US, Russia, and several other countries all were generally in consensus of my a) and b) points about the program, above. Those services were wrong - it happens, and it's not the president's fault, directly).

Finally, there's no sense in crying over spilt milk, as the proverb goes.

When politics takes to score-settling, the pendulum swings wide and goes both ways. We're almost out of this mess Bush got us in to. If you use the powers that are available to punish Bush and his psychophants in power, you create grudges that will brew and boil until an opportunity comes for the aggrieved to seek their own vengeance.

If, instead, we ride out the next 7 months, the reality is that (it's not assuming too much) Obama will win, and by late November, his transition team will be working with the Pentagon and the Shia Iraqi government to start a responsible drawdown of forces. By late January, those plans will be going into effect.

If we divert our energies toward impeaching someone, people who remember 2002/2003 as I do will certainly rally to the defense of the President. It will draw a very clean "us vs. them" battle line, and just when a convergence of positive energy is pointing the country in a clear direction to recover from 8 years of idiocy, we'll be prolonging that idiocy and hampering a truly inspiring leader's ability to lead us to a new place as a nation.

So in closing (whew!), impeachment actually makes it harder to punish the people responsible for the Iraq fiasco, and makes it harder to undo the mistakes 8 years have seen.

The known universe is filled with examples of injustice, so much so that fairness is the exception not the rule. Because human beings are aware of this at an intuitive level, we value mercy more than justice. The left was correct and the right was incorrect about all this stuff. Be merciful in that accuracy, and allow the lessons to be learned, and you'll see better results than if you lock up everyone who was responsible.

Thats my 'werd'
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Old 06-12-2008   #7
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couldn't dissagree more...

Quote:
impeachment actually makes it harder to punish the people responsible for the Iraq fiasco, and makes it harder to undo the mistakes 8 years have seen.
Impeachment means investigation, not prosecution. How does that make it harder? How would you suggest making it easier?

Quote:
Finally, there's no sense in crying over spilt milk, as the proverb goes.
Probably a quote from a habitual milk spiller. That wouldn't work for the cop writing me a speeding ticket last week. Spilt milk is usually associated with an accident. If I threw milk in your face, flipped you off, and said "bring it on", that is a little different than dumping it in your lap while reaching for the mashed potatoes.

Since there is so much in your post, I'm going to just try to cover it all generally with this: No one should be above the law.

Nah, I'm going to keep going. His own press secretary has said Bush used propaganda to push the war. That in itself is a crime.

Quote:
To quote Andrew Sullivan: I'm not sure "bush lied"
Who cares what Sullivan is sure of or not. First, he's not even a U.S. citizen, second, he's a journalist not a constitutional or criminal lawyer! That is what the impeachment (=investigation) is for!

Quote:
The press, as much as anyone, let us all down after 9/11,
No, the people are to blame too. I couldn't believe we were going to war after hearing Powell address the UN. I was yelling at the TV as I watched it. The press and most politicians answer to the same corporate masters. The people have to keep them in check. But the extremely ignorant U.S. population are too busy with American Idol and Lindsay Lohan headlines to care or notice. "They" learned from 'Nam, keep us in the dark, keep their taxes low and don't make them pay for the war just yet. No one cares about debt in the US, look at the average credit card debt! $20,000! We are a culture of here and now, f'k the future.

There are 35 articles of impeachment, not all have to do directly with the lies taking us to war. Give all 65 pages a good read and then get back to us on why we should let him escape to Paraguay.

-d
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Old 06-12-2008   #8
Roy
 
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I'll limit myself to this bit...
Quote:
I don't think any political force even could have stopped the invasion of Iraq in 2003, simply because the US reaction to 9/11 was human. It was human. In all its pageantry, excess, self-righteousness, and zeal. We wanted revenge, and we didn't care about the cost.
You may be right about the revenge part, but way off base on the Iraq part. This administration--and especially the Dark Lord himself--actively channeled that legitimate rage from AlQaeda into Iraq unnecessarily. The backlash of an American people betrayed by their leaders, in all its "pageantry, excess, self-righteousness, and zeal" is every bit as human and quite a bit more legitimate, IMHO.

BTW, instead of letting that spilled milk fester, one can clean it up and then look into how it got spilt in the first place so as not to make the same mistake again...
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Last edited by Roy; 06-12-2008 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 06-12-2008   #9
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Lest we forget Gentelmen.............


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Last edited by Theophilus; 06-12-2008 at 10:13 PM..
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Old 06-13-2008   #10
BastrdSonOfElvis

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The plans to invade and occupy Iraq were written in the mid 90's by the very people Shrub surrounded himself with during his first term. They didn't like Saddam because he was a loose cannon and his country has the second largest known oil reserves on the planet. Second to Saudi Arabia, of course, and after his stunt in Kuwait everyone was nervous. Our government never cared about his human rights abuses, especially when he was our ally against the Iranians. 911 gave them the excuse they needed. The public was worked up into a frenzy and looking for somebody to kick in the nads. Why not take advantage of the opportunity?

One of the biggest "factoids" the administration used to point as Iraq as a clear and present danger was the fact that Saddam had sought enriched uranium from Africa. He did this in the late 80s, unsuccessfully, and there was no evidence that he had done so again in the 15 years between then and our invasion. That fact was conveniently left out.

Helio, do yourself and everyone else a favor and watch "Why We Fight", a documentary film by Eugene Jarecki. It's as nonpartisan as you get. It deals mostly with the military-industrial-congressional complex in general, but in particular with the Iraq conflict. Most of the interviews are of pentagon insiders at the time and include John McCain. If you don't think these people deserve to be punished after watching that there's no hope for you.

Yeah, democrats are dumbasses too. Or more appropriately put, they all have their own agendas. Too often in politics, if you see an attractive band wagon you better jump on before you miss it. Elected officials pander to their electorate and are in somebody's pocket

Livingston, excellent point regarding the apathy and ignorance of most Americans. It drives me crazy. If enough people would turn off their boob tubes long enough to look up and really take stock things might change for the better. Not just this administration, not just the way our whole political and economic systems are broken, not just the way war and wasteful forms of energy that could be replaced are too profitable to let go of, not just the rapidly increasing division of wealth in the world, but that the human condition has not improved proportionately to technology and our ability to take care of everyone and do it well. Here's hoping..
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Last edited by BastrdSonOfElvis; 06-13-2008 at 01:00 AM.. Reason: yo momma
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