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Old 06-16-2008   #31
blutzski

Profile:  Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
As for Ron Paul, agree with his stance on Iraq, feel we still have some unfinished business in Afganistan, but have some serious questions about everything else.
If he were elected and got rid of, lets use the USDA for one, who would now be responsible for food safety? Not that they are doing a stellar job now (tomatoes), but I think that he would get some tremendous heat after the first major outbreak of E-coli.

-d
I guess it comes down to if you feel the federal government is doing an competent and cost effective job. And if you feel the benefit of the Federal Government doing those jobs outweigh the corruption, pork barrel projects, corporate control of our government, lobbyists, wastefull spending, debilitating taxes, etc. etc. I personally don't and feel all those issues should be made at the state level where accountability and efficiency are the greatest. They can't even hold a savings account (social security) how does anyone expect them to run a healthcare system?

If Iowa decided to not test for E-Coli, people would quit buying food from Iowa and buy it from a state where testing was strict. Iowa farmers would get their shit (no pun intended) together real quick.

I don't see the need for the federal government to have more powers than it was granted in the constitution and I see alot of harm that has resulted from it overstepping its bounds. Why does it have to weigh in on social issues like gay marriage? Why can't Utah have different laws than San Francisco. Different strokes for different folks. You're never going to get everyone to agree on every issue. Quit trying. But address the things that keep this country going like sound monetary policy, foreign policy, and civil liberties.

I think the people who put issues like gay marriage at the top of their list in deciding on a candidate are the poorly informed voters that Helio is talking about. Not to belittle gay marriage to those to whom it's important, but if we keep getting our civil liberties taken away from us and the corporations keep getting more and more control of our government, you aren't going to get a say in issues that matter to you. The decision will be made for you by corporate controled government puppets and non-elected supreme court justices. If we don't get control of our monetary policy, the national debt and the trade deficit, you aren't going to get a say in issues that matter to you. The decision will be made for you by the owner of this country, China.

Last edited by blutzski; 06-16-2008 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 06-17-2008   #32
heliodorus04
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Profile:  The Ranch, Colorado
Paddling Since: 04
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Really, when was the American republic egalitarian? Perhaps between the adoption of the Constitution till Andrew Jackson?

Maybe I dismiss my own cynicism, but I feel pretty strongly that all governments are oligarchies. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that, or how comfortable I am with that (I'm trying to work my way into an income level where I'll have access to oligarchs). It was that way in the Roman republic, worse under Empire, it was that way in the Christian nations of the dark age, it was that way under the renaissance and through the enlightenment. Periods of egalitarian government, it seems to me, are the exception in history, not the rule.

Is it perhaps worse now than at any point in my adult life? Perhaps it is. For the sake of argument, let's assume it is.

Opting out of the system by not voting, whatever your intent, will be heard by the oligarchs that you don't care enough to register an opinion on the way things are. To quote Sir Thomas Moore, "You may take my silence as implicit agreement" (during his heresy hearings, when he refused to recognize the King as the head of the Church of England - he was later beheaded...)

THIS election, you have to refute the last 8 years.
You have to refute the war in Iraq
You have to refute torture
You have to refute the idiocy of the status quo in energy policy
You have to refute the non-action on climate change (whether man causes it or not, it's happening)
You have to refute the power-grab by the Executive branch

Letting McCain and the neocons think that you don't care about the above is the worst possible message you can send.

I don't care if you vote for Ron Paul or Obama.
I'm personally going to vote for Obama, even though Ron Paul is practically the living embodiment of my political philosophy. Why would I NOT vote for the man who best represents my political views?

Two reasons:
First, Ron Paul can't win. Our two-party system weakens our democracy by invalidating radically different styles in politics. That's no one's fault but the dumb mass in the middle, which doesn't want to think through issues (and, in my world, wouldn't be allowed to VOTE! FUCKERS!). I mean, have you seen the hotties in the new Legally Blonde reality show? That's important stuff.

So since Paul can't win, in my view, my (MY!) vote for him can only go to elect the person I DON'T want to win, John McCain (nothing against McCain too specifically, but this election is about invalidating my support for the last 8 years, and the neocon movement).

The second reason Ron Paul can't win is because Libertarianism (and my own philosophy of Federalism) suffers from a delusion about the compatibility of human nature and personal responsibility in large societies: People refuse to be responsible for their own bad choices.

If there's a fatal flaw in human nature, it is that a great (and I assert, the vast) majority of human beings unrealistically blame outside factors for their own lack of prosperity. The larger and more complex the society, the more scapegoats are available.

It's the illegal immigrants
It's the oligarchs
It's the corporations
It's the Illuminati
It's the developers
It's the East-Coasters
It's the Texans

etc.

In any place where I've personally seen Libertarianism work, it's been a relatively small, homogenous society that tends to be simple economically. I certainly know of no examples where the society isn't very homogenous in terms of its culture and values. (Examples I've seen: Norway, NorCal, West Germany)

So my voting tends to focus not on trying to elect people who reflect my ideology, but on trying to take advantage of the political currents of the time, and picking out a message that I agree with or issues that I want to see supported.

My cynicism is most notable when it comes to my learned belief that the American democracy wishes for more and more nanny-state caregiving. I can't override that trend, but I can try to channel it to the best possible (available) focuses.

I will vote for Obama for a lot of reasons having to do with his character, which I don't think I'll go in to here. But mostly I will be voting for Obama because I believe he will:

1) Draw down forces in Iraq to under 30,000 in his first term
2) End torture
3) Roll back the Executive branch power grab that's occurred in the last 8 years
4) Make progress dealing with energy policy/climate change
5) Appoint judges to the courts who will protect individual liberty/choice

I couldn't POSSIBLY be more wrong than i was in the last two presidential elections, right?
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Old 06-17-2008   #33
Livingston
 
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In any place where I've personally seen Libertarianism work, it's been a relatively small, homogenous society that tends to be simple economically. I certainly know of no examples where the society isn't very homogenous in terms of its culture and values. (Examples I've seen: Norway, NorCal, West Germany)
Isn't Norway a highly regulated constitutional monarcy? While they do put a lot of emphasis on liberty, they are not so much about small, hands off government from what I've read. (Armed Madhouse, by Greg Palast).

But if you are looking for examples of things done well, the Scandinavian countries are good ones.

If Helio and I are voting for the same guy, I'd better re-evaluate!!! Kidding.

-d
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Last edited by Livingston; 06-17-2008 at 03:22 PM.. Reason: grammers
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Old 06-17-2008   #34
gh

Profile:  Colo Spgs, Colorado
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Well I dont know Livingston, he is stunning us both. I actually couldnt disagree with anything in helio's post. All I can say is, ditto.....
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Last edited by gh; 06-18-2008 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 06-18-2008   #35
BUSTERonBUFFALO

Profile:  Maximum fun
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10
George W. Bush > Congress

Trying to impeach Bush would be a disaster for the Democrats. W. would just make Congress his prison bitch,,,,,,,,AGAIN. This congress is flacid and uneffective in every aspect. This congress has not delivered on it's promise to stop the Iraq war. What in Gawds name makes anybody think they could actually impeach Bush? If they did the Democrats would probably end up losing both the Senate and the House. It would just display their uneffectiveness in a new and negative way. It would be a joke.
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Old 06-18-2008   #36
Livingston
 
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Buffalobuster,
Quote:
Trying to impeach Bush would be a disaster for the Democrats.
It didn't seem to affect the Republican led congress when they impeached Clinton. Why would this be any different?

Quote:
This congress is flacid and uneffective in every aspect.
Agreed. But most of the problem is that the Repubs (Mitch McConnel) fillibusters everything and the majority's voice is squashed. The Dems are weak because they instantly cave at the threat of a filibuster and don't make them do it. So nothing gets passed.

Quote:
What in Gawds name makes anybody think they could actually impeach Bush?
A: The CONSTITUTION. Again, impeachment is the investigation, not the prosecution. I believe there would be enough votes for impeachment. Whether it would lead to prosecution is another matter.
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Old 06-18-2008   #37
Livingston
 
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What in Gawds name makes anybody think they could actually impeach Bush?
More stuff in Gawds name.

1) Wire tapping, 52% for impeachment.
Poll: Americans Support Bush Impeachment for Wiretapping | Democrats.com

2) Bush's Job approval, some polls, and Cheney impeachment:
Polling | AfterDowningStreet.org

3) Just some general polling.
http://www.democrats.com/bush-impeachment-polls

4) And if this president and vice president are this unpopular without an investigation. What direction do you think those numbers would go once impeachment brings out more dirt?

Gawd's name, yeah... WWJI (who would Jesus impeach)?



-d
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Old 06-18-2008   #38
BUSTERonBUFFALO

Profile:  Maximum fun
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 10
Wish about impeaching Bush in one hand and shit in the other. See which wish comes true. If it is such a open and shut case then the Dems should go ahead and do it. The Republicans super dog dare the Democrats.

Part of the reason the Democrats cower in fear of a real fight is simply because they lose.
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Old 06-18-2008   #39
marko

Profile:  ., Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
THIS election, you have to refute the last 8 years.
You have to refute the war in Iraq
You have to refute torture
You have to refute the idiocy of the status quo in energy policy
You have to refute the non-action on climate change (whether man causes it or not, it's happening)
You have to refute the power-grab by the Executive branch
Where on the ballot do I write in all of these refutals? I know, vote for the candidate that "says" he will refute these things. That being Obama, right?

But, here is my concern: Obama "says" he will end the war in Iraq. So, do I take him for his word? My skepticism arises with the fact that he has approved all Iraq war spending since his election to the Senate. Yes, he was originally against the war. But if he is against it then why then does he continue to help fund it?

He "says" he doesn't take money from Corporate interests and that he will put regulation back on the bankers and Wall Street. And yet, Goldmann Sachs gave him half a million dollars, among other corporations. How is that not accepting money from corporate interests?Top Contributors to Barack Obama | OpenSecrets

Just throwing some of these things out there that "confuse" me about what Obama "says" and what Obama might actually do if he becomes president. I could be wrong about the above concerns, so feel free to correct me.

Maybe the next craps table will start paying off, eh?

--
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Old 06-18-2008   #40
Livingston
 
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Profile:  Denver, Colorado
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BB,
It is real difficult to argue with someone who can not produce a single item to support their side. Talking in opinion, emotion, and cliche's is a waste of time. Take a look at Helio, Blutzski, or Marko's examples on how to form an argument before you get back to us.
It is not that I don't care what you think, I would just like to know why you think it.
-d
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