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Old 10-04-2006   #41
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The problem with the precious metals and the economy

A lot of this country's financial woes came towards the end of the late 19th century with the silver crash. Most of the economy was based on silver, and to some degree, gold back then.

However, we produced way too much silver back then. We literally flooded the market and the monetary system. What happens when supply outpaces demand and supply isn't put into check? Boom goes the balloon. We revisited that during the 1920's with gold during stock market crash, of which over-valuation of stock and the valuation of gold collided.

Federal Reserve System is a quasi-governmental banking system composed of a presidentially-appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Federal Open Market Committee, twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located all over the nation, and private member banks, which own varying amounts of stock in the regional Federal Reserve Banks. So it is a Government agency so to speak, but banks own 'stock' or shares in it.

Marko, you go live in an Islamic country where they rule the land by Sharia. You will come back a very changed person. You also need to go back to 'Harvard' and do some more studying, you missed a few finer points of historical fact. Had not the Austrians hung tough in Vienna, we'd all be Muslims...but gee, that isn't spreading religion by the sword is it? I'm not ignoring the fact that medieval politics was well, downright medieval and that all sides are culpable for some very bloody periods of history, the facts of the matter remains. Islamic violence is on the rise. Islamic fundementalists are growing in numbers. Insane Islamic Mullahs who twist every word they can from the Qu'ran, do so daily. While the vast majority of their anger is directed at the USA, it is also directed elsewhere in the world too.

It goes back to the polarization theory. The world must have polarity. we had it with capitalism -vs- communism. History is repeating itself. We are back to Christians -vs- Muslims. Humankind reduced to it's simplest terms of functionality; we're like a battery with opposite poles. Conflict isn't the main worry here, it's when there is no conflict that worries me, like a dead battery, is that when we no longer exist?

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Old 10-04-2006   #42
Golden, Colorado
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I'm not going to take my information from the Fed web site since I don't trust the source. From Wikipedia:

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is an independent government agency. The Board is subject to laws like the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act which cover Federal agencies and not private entities. Like most other independent agencies, its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government. The Board of Governors does not receive funding from Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board span multiple presidential and congressional terms. Once a member of the Board of Governors is appointed by the president, he or she is relatively independent (although the law provides for the possibility of removal by the President "for cause" under 12 U.S.C. § 242).

The Federal Reserve Banks are nominally "owned" by the private member banks (see below). In Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (9th Cir. 1982), the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that "the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA [the Federal Tort Claims Act], but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." The opinion also stated that "the Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes."

The member banks are generally privately-owned corporations. The stocks of many of the member banks are publicly traded.

It is my understanding that it was the brainchild of J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller and Rothchild in the 1910's.

Here's the thing I don't understand. If the Federal Reserve is authorized to print money under a fiat monetary sytem, isn't that instant inflation? If there are $1000 in circulation and they print and put another $100 in circulation, the value of my money just went down 10%. Who does that 10% go to? It goes to the Federal Reserve. If the Fed is a private institution then it goes to the corporations that control it. If your right that it's not a private institution, then it goes to the government. The defense contractor that the government gives the $100 to also benefits. The money that I just lost due to inflation was then just transferred from me to the government and the corporations close to the government. The government has done this repeatedly to avoid the inconvenience of having to ask to raise taxes. If the purpose of the Fed is to control inflation, they suck at it and should be abolished just for being incompetent at their job if for no other reason. My parents were able to buy a house on less than one years salary. Now it takes 4 to 6 years salary. Cars, healthcare, education, everything is the same way.

The scary thing is that if corporations control the money supply to the government then they control the government. That makes perfect sence if you look at the erosion of individual liberties, globalization, world trade organizations, and the fact that your vote means nothing anymore. It sure looks like the government won't secure the borders but are going to require citizens to carry Nation ID's with radio chips because that benefits corporations. They also want a stable oil supply in the mideast.

On the issue of the Legality of the Income Tax I still cannot find a law that requires people to pay income taxes. Help me out there. If that is true then we live in a police state where the will of the government is imposed by force - IRS agents.

Large corporations are just fine. That is capitalism, which I'm all in favor of. The problem is when corporations start controlling the government. That's Corporatism and that squashes capitalism.

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Old 10-04-2006   #43
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mvhyde, it sounds like you've worn the uniform and for a good many more years than myself. But I believe you may have been in a different army, or at least at a different time.

You see, when people speak of the "all volunteer army", I have to chuckle to myself. If for no other reason than to avoid throwing up or punching whoever said it in the face. For you see, I myself, am no longer a "volunteer". I was for the three years that were stipulated in no uncertain terms in my contract, after which I though I would be free to move on with my life. But an executive order changed all that. Funny how contracts with the government work: you must hold up your end but theirs is open to renegotiation at any time of their choosing. I'm reminded of what Darth Vader said to Lando in the cloud city: "I've altered the deal, pray I don't alter it further." Nice role model.

And it doesn't stop with me, some punk professional whose been trying to get out since before he got in. As a provider, I see a pretty wide swath of the army: 8-10 patients/day for the past three years. And I can tell you that I see many, many unhappy faces, and not just because I'm about to stick them with a needle. A lot of these people are no longer volunteers.

So, how long will my indentured servitude last? Hard saying, not knowing. At least a year without any of the things I love. But you're right, I signed up. Don't cry for me, Argentina. But when I did, it was with the understanding that our executive would take us to war only when absolutely necessary. And that's what hard to swallow. I'm not going to look for Osama -- where is that guy anyway? -- if so I'd be pretty cool with it. I'm going to a war for which the bullshit justification is even nebulous. Who knows why we're actually there. Maybe the people making all the $$$.
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 10-04-2006   #44
pnw, Washington
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BSOE, I discussed voting with some Fort Carson guys during the last pres election and they voted Bush. I researched after and Bush carried the military vote. Do you think they would vote differently now?

mvhyde, you gotta stop watching foxnews. Some Muslims are teaching violence, not all. By the way, the KKK considered themselves good god fearing christians. Does that mean we should have killed all the christians? No, if however we would have bombed the KKK for example and killed civilians you would have polarized the south against the govt. We have done the same thing by killing civilians in Iraq. Is that issue really that hard to see?
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 10-04-2006   #45
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Growing up poor and ignorant in the 3rd world would make anyone hope for a better deal after death, and also very impressionable. We could kill them for that or work toward educating future generations. Currently we are polarizing them against us, just like I did to you by attacking you and calling you names, only causing you to solidify your position. Even though I had valid points, you were more likely not to consider them. Now, think about how you would feel if instead of calling you names, I killed half your relatives with my response.

I do apologize for the name calling. But have you ever convinced someone to change their mind during a political discussion? Me neither. While it can be fun, it is usually pretty useless. The goal was to polarize and get you fired up. That is exactly what happens on the 760s and 850s (I personally listen to 1650) that Blutski was talking about. For example, the same righties that were attacking Clinton for a blow job are defending Foley because they are so polarized that they can't see their hipocrasy. It goes both ways.

Once someone starts defending a position, they usually stick to it no matter what. Why? Because they are still defending all their previous discussions/arguements as well. Even when new information comes available, the pole is hard to switch. I have been guilty of it myself.

While we are on religion- Personally, I consider all religion science fiction and therefore no reason to kill anybody. I’m in a small minority in the world, and the US for that matter. Falling for religion is due to a lack of education in my opinion, specifically a lack of skepticism (untolerated in all religions for good reason).

Back to the original topic (somewhat, I know nothing about the Federal Reserve). I do believe we are fascist by definition under the current administration... and I listen to both sides. That it is even arguable should be disturbing to any American. Worse though, I feel we will be judged on the wrong side of history in the near and far future.


P.S. Fuck you Caverdan
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Old 10-04-2006   #46
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The PS was obviously a joke.
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Old 10-04-2006   #47
Denver, Colorado
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Marko, you go live in an Islamic country where they rule the land by Sharia. You will come back a very changed person. You also need to go back to 'Harvard' and do some more studying, you missed a few finer points of historical fact. Had not the Austrians hung tough in Vienna, we'd all be Muslims...but gee, that isn't spreading religion by the sword is it?
Mvhyde: First of all, you should look up the definition of "ad hominem." Second, I cannot have an objective discussion with a person who does not have any regard for valid historical evidence that clearly illustrates a viewpoint to be questionable.

Sure, I could have learned more (you can always learn more), but I doubt that my Professor and the other Biblical Scholars who have spent a lifetime studying religions need to return to college.

There is no doubt that history is full of examples of battles - "by the sword." What you are not taking into context is that a lot of these battles had nothing to do with Islam or Christianity, and had everything to do with POWER. A lot of the Muslim rulers appointed themselves as caliphs to increase their religious prestige. ( Bush Jr. is a modern day example of this.) And, like in ALL religions, people will use and distort the TRUE meanings of the religion to justify their ideas of power and conquest.

BTW-Your argument that we would all be Muslims had it not been for the Austrians is not historical fact. That's like saying all Americans would still be Europeans had the Native Americans been able to defend their land against the European colonizers. It just doesn't work like that. Things have to "actually" occur - in reality - to make it history. It is historical fact that the Austrians finally defeated the Ottoman Empire after a long series of battles in the late 17th century. But, the idea that we would all be Muslims had it not been for the Austrian victory is just a matter of opinion and a wild guess.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Just because a small fraction of Muslims are rotten doesn't mean the majority (1.3 BILLION) are rotten. And, yes, Islamic extremism is growing rapidly. Do we really need to debate why? Or, can the intelligence reports speak for itself?

I'm done, so have at it.
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Old 10-05-2006   #48
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Wow, Harvard! That's where Bill O'Reilly got his masters, I believe. As a lowely Gonzaga grad, I cannot compete. However, perhaps you can enlighten me as to some more current affairs. Who regularily attacks whom in Jerusalem today? Is it Jews, Christians, or Muslims that attack innocent citizens, especially targeting children and young adults, without provocation while out of uniform? Who carries out attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India against unarmed civilians? What religious group was it that blew up the most used train system in the entire world recently? Was that a military train or civilian?? Was it the same religious group that bombed the trains in Spain? The same group that waged war against the Brits by attempting to take down 10 international flights of civilians, unarmed innocent folks, just recently. What group was it that attacked the US on several occasions, including twice at the World Trade Center (1993 and 01), a Navy ship (Cole) and multiple embassys and interests world wide, killing thousands? If you spent half your time justifying the actions of radical Muslims trying to understand Christians (by polls, 85% of of the US population) perhaps you would not have such a scewed vision of the world. While I appreciate the history lesson, I really don't give a ****what Muslims have provided us in the past, all I can see is who is creating war with their neighbors world over (Indonesia, Mid east, East Europe, Europe, all over Africa, the Americas, etc). You can call Christians names all day long but it does not excuse the actions of radical Islam. What I see today are the Muslims cheering in the streets while dragging American civilians' burnt and mutilated bodies through the boulevards, hanging them from bridges. I don't think that this represents Islam worldwide, but where is the outrage?. The Muslims standing up to this insane behaviour are so few and far between as to be missed entirely. Marko, next time you feel the need to go on a diatribe about what Islam has provided us, try bring up something in the last 50-100 yrs. Show us something beyond hatred and genocide in our generation. Can you give examples? I hope so. But don't tell me that Christians are causing these wars world over while Islam is providing peace. You are selling us that the Muslim aggressions are for power, but Christian killing was to spread the word? You might as well piss down my back and tell me it's raining. I also own an English version of the Koran and I'll tell you, that book is scary (so is the Old Testiment, really).

One last thought about Jeruselam: If we took all the weapons from Muslims in the Persian area, would Isreal run the Arabs from the face of the earth? If we disarmed Isreal, what would become of the Jews? If you are the least bit intellectually honest, you know that the Jews would be driven from the area or killed for staying. What Omar did 1k yrs ago has NO impact on our current situation.

The name calling in some posts are not only distincly ad hominem attacks but also a direct aversion to world views differing from the posters. This is a perfect example of the intolerance exhibited from many on the left today. Intolerance of differing opinion. Personally, I enjoy a bit of political discourse, but when name calling comes into play, I am turned off. Name calling does not promote dissent, it stiffles it. Ad hominem attacks act to censure those who disagree.

As an aside, anyone who is outraged by Bush's power grab and war mongering should look into a Democrat that drove the US to attack another nation some time ago, a nation that had not attacked us. I can't defend Bush, but I can tell you that FDR did some crazy stuff that makes Bush's antics pale in comparison. The secret spying and wire taps were rampant. He enacted a peacetime draft! Lies and deceit that brought us to a war that cost 400,000 American lives. Also a war that, as history showed us, MUST have been fought to preserve western civilization as we know it. Had FDR been defeated in 1940 by Wilkie(?), who ran on an anti-war campeign, we would certainly be looking at a different world today (unless you're Marko, then if it didn't happen we cannot conjecture what could have been?!?). I guess my point to all of this is that we could, believe it or not, look back one day and be thankful that we went to Iraq. History could prove that Bush made a tough decision that, while unpopular, is right. It has yet to be seen. I won't be betting any of my money on it, b/c with the lack of WMD's and the current situation (here and there) it isn't looking good. However, I will submit that if Iraq became a peaceful nation that contributed to the world--an island of democracy and peace in a jacked up region, then we did the right thing. The folks in power have bet an enourmous amount that we can have a satisfactory outcome. I for one hope they are right, b/c if we fail in Iraq then extremists (everywhere in Iraq now) will have one of the richest peices of land in the world from which to launch attacks indefinately (or maybe Iraq could fall into the hands of Iran? Certainly a goal of their's).

damn, I've been holding back from typing this post for days. Damn.
"Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at
one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."

- Ronald Reagan
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Old 10-05-2006   #49
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Marko, your little poster of bush is misleading and wrong. The wiretap program allows the gov to monitor suspected terrorist calls to phones in the United States. NEVER has any of this info been used in US criminal courts as it would be ruled unconstitutional and against your 4th ammendment rights. The first time information collected in this manner is used in a criminal trial against a US cititzen I'll be the first one to protest.

Bush has done many other things I disagree with put do us all a favor and stop misrepresenting the facts you LIBERAL!
"any man who would trade freedom for security, deserves neither freedom nor security" Thomas Jefferson
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Old 10-05-2006   #50
pnw, Washington
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team, who's to say they wont..

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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