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Old 10-03-2006   #31
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 58
I don't think it's a good idea for you to go out and read books / watch movies based solely on a recommendation from someone you may not know. That would be a good way to line pockets of undeserving people and chase phantom conspiracies (refer to the income tax movie for an example).

Try researching authors before investing your time into their books, your education is up to you. If not, I've got a book of mormon I bought at ARC that you need to read to understand our world ...

If you think our system of checks and balances has suffered in the last 5 years (it has), then I don't wan't to hear you complain that the Federal Reserve is independent! You should know better than this. I strongly beleive that central banks should be independant. Seperately, you might beleive that we either shouldn't have central banks or shouldn't have fiat money. Central banks and fiat money aren't necesarrily complimentary, you can have either without the other. Of course, we have both.

And if you don't want central banks to control interest rates, then who should? George Bush could, and so could your bank, but we've ranted about both Bush and Corporatism. I don't know what you want.

If there's something we can all agree on, it's probably that too much power shouldn't be centralized in the executive branch.


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Old 10-03-2006   #32
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Thought-criminal, Colorado
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Johnny, how can we believe there's any cred to what you have to say when you paid for the book of mormon? come on, man, I get one of those delivered free to my house almost weekly by these nice, blonde haired boys. never use your phonebook for kindling again!

I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 10-03-2006   #33
Golden, Colorado
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Here's some Wikepedia quotes on Fiat Money and Central Banks:

“Fiat money is the cause of inflation, and the amount which people lose in purchasing power is exactly the amount which was taken from them and transferred to their governments by this process.” – G. Edward Griffin, “The Creature from Jekyll Island”

“A fiat monetary system allows power and influence to fall into the hands of those who control the creation of new money, and to those who get to use the money or credit early in its circulation. The insidious and eventual cost falls on unidentified victims who are usually oblivious to the cause of their plight. This system of legalized plunder (though not constitutional) allows one group to benefit at the expense of another. An actual transfer of wealth goes from the poor and the middle class to those in privileged financial positions.” — Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX), "Paper Money and Tyranny"

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." — Henry Ford

I don't understand it and I think that's the problem. I don't think that 99.9% of Americans know that the Federal Reserve is a private institution that manipulates the supply of money and causes inflation when they say they are protecting it's value. Like Henry Ford said. If people understood it, there would be a revolution. I intend to understand it. I'll get back to you on that.
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Old 10-03-2006   #34
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I’m not going to start off by calling you an idiot because I doubt you (or Myhyde) are. I don’t believe promoting ones cause by name calling is productive even if it’s done in the anonymity of an internet forum. I’m fairly certain if we met on the river or over a beer, we’d be friends. However, I think you would be well served to take your own advice and put the scientific theory to some of your own “facts”.

“Fact 1”
Bush=fascist: Why? He continues to centralize power through the patriot act and signing statement to name a few(sidestepping congress).

In 2001 the Senate passed the Patriot Act by a vote of 98 to 1. It was renewed in March of 2006 with a vote of 89 to 11 in the Senate and 280 to 138 in the House. Where was it that he sidestepped Congress?

“Fact 2”
Racism, another part of fascism... where does W stand on gays? Mexican immigrants? Muslims?

I assume you are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants. Part of Bush’s immigration plan would grant foreign nationals who have broken our immigration laws temporary work visas and subsequently U.S. citizenship. Is that an example of racism?

“Fact 3”
How does Bush respond to Critisism? If you don't totaly agree with him you are unpatriotic, period. Look into the new definition of "enemy combatant" as just passed in congress.

Did you intend to put those last four words in there? It was passed by congress. That’s how it works in our country.

“Fact 4”
Corporatism? I don't think I have to argue that one.

Well, actually you do. I going to assume you’re interpreting corporatism as large corporations and there leaders as having an undue influence on the way our government operates since that was the sort of the original point of this thread. That’s not the same thing as corporatism as it applies to a Fascist state.
Be sure to read the last sentence of the first paragraph which reads; “These corporatist assemblies are not the same as contemporary business corporations or incorporated groups.”

My point of this post is not to call you out or to support Bush. I disagree with many of his policies and decisions. My point is that people on BOTH sides of an argument tend to make emotional arguments that serve only to divide us. Our system is based on compromise. Almost no one is going to agree with everything our government does. All people are entitled to their own beliefs and ideologies and but they’re all subject to compromise every time we vote. When people make outrageous, unsupportable arguments, they run the risk of not being taken seriously.

On balance, our government works pretty well. It’s not perfect and there will always be room for improvement but declaring one side as fascist or communist or whatever with trumped up charges doesn’t help.
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Old 10-03-2006   #35
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“Fact 1”
Any Repubs step out of line and they get Rove on their ass. Hard on terror is the party line and Bush is calling Dem's weak-kneed as elections are coming. Are Repubs going to cave and become cut and runners? Anyway, does it matter how it was accomplished? The executive is tending toward greater power, period. Hitler got his power legally too, check out, “The Enabling Act”. The German parliament legally passed The Enabling Act giving the Chancellor and his parliment power to enact laws without parliment after an attack on the Reichstag. Sound familiar?

“Fact 2”
Bush doesn’t think the National Anthem should be sung in Spanish, period. How about his push to make English the national language in this “nation of immigrants”, in his words. You left out the gays and Muslims.

“Fact 3”
You did not present an argument that this administration is not oppressing dissenting views. The criticism statement still holds true. A republican controlled congress handing over more power to the executive shows Bush’s power over them (again, see “Enabling Act”).

“Fact 4”
Point taken, but corporatism holds true for both definitions, modern and historical. The modern business corporation IS the unelected “body” or corpus affecting legislative decisions. The historical definition states that it is not necessarily a bussiness.

In your opinion, on a scale of 1-10, how fascist are we boatnbike?

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Old 10-03-2006   #36
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I would rate us a 2, (if 1 is not at all). I'll raise my rating when Congress grants the executive branch the ability to enact laws without their consent (the equivalent of The Enabling Act) but I won't hold my breath. The current version of the Patriot Act has a host of clauses written into it to protect our civil liberties.

As for Bush's position on making English the official language, I believe that's more of a matter of practicality than one of racism and, frankly, I agree with him on this point. Do you want our government to be required to publish all materials, signs etc. in English and Spanish? If that happens, what about French, Japanese, Arabic, Hebrew? Where does it stop? I don't think it's unreasonable for our citizens or potential citizens to be encouraged to learn English since that is far and away the most common language. This is historically what this "nation of immigrants" have done. Why should it be different today? As for Muslims, do you have any evidence that Bush has a prejudice towards Muslims who aren't found in a battle zone or who've demonstrated themselves as potentially dangerous? If so, I'd like to see it. It's not like the government is rounding them up and sending them to camps which our country has done in the past. You may be able to make an argument for prejudice against gays by Bush's support of the Federal Marriage Amendment although I believe he's supported allowing civil unions for gays but I may be wrong about that.

I don't know exactly how you think Bush is suppressing dissenting views. Yes, congress has handed over a little more power to the executive branch but there were plenty of Democrats who voted for the Patriot Act. Do you believe Bush is controlling them or could it be there constituents were in favor of the act? There is no "Enabling Act" in effect in our country.

Corporations certainly have an impact on our legislative decisions but so do all lobbying organizations, (including American Whitewater I'm happy to say). But what do you want to do about that? If it's limiting there influence in some way, I'll agree with you although I'm not sure how it would be accomplished. If it's outlawing large corporations, what's your alternative? There are some things that can't be done exempt by large corporations, (think automobiles, commercial jetliners and many other examples).

I feel its far more likely that my children and family could become the target of terrorists than the Bush administration will become a Fascist dictatorship.
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Old 10-03-2006   #37
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gee whiz gipper

Okay... I am a complete idiot. Nevermind I spent 16 yrs of my 23 yrs in the US Army in COINTEL and counter-insurgency. Let's just disregard that completely. Let's also disregard my having been up close and personal with these mentally misaligned miscreants who lop off heads, blow themselves up, kill innocent men, women and children, and all under the guise of Allah the God of all. Let's disregard the Fatwahs these 'so'called' men of God, Mullahs issue on a daily basis to go out and kill someone for Allah and get their 40 virgins just because someone pissed in his cornflakes or his wife was PMSing.

Mr. Livingston, you are either a complete moron, or yet another in the long line of children who have no clue about how the world is wired and just how inifinitely complicated foreign policy is, be it by word or force of sword. You have no idea about the brave men and women, both citizens of this country and not, have long stood watch on our borders and beyond to protect your pathetic sad little ass.

Your ignorance with regards to Islam and those who 'purport' to practice it while commiting the most horrendous of deeds on the innocent is truly puzzling. I doubt you have ever even read the Qu'ran. I have in fact read the book. One of the first things you learn in the Qu'ran is that it is the most holy and solemn duty of every Muslim to spread the faith. How can they do this? It is specific, very specific. Convert the non-believers by any means necessary, including the sword. If they do not submit, they it is the solemn duty of all good Muslims to kill the non-believers (meaning: Jews, Christians, Taoists, etc etc.). End of story. So now that we cleared that up, maybe you'll go out and read their 'good book' and gain a tacit understanding of at least one area of the mess we are in.

Another thing, Mr. Livingston, English IS the language of this country. I could care less where a person comes from, so long as they do it legally and learn English, and adapt to OUR society, not theirs. We would be expected to do the same in THEIR country, and in some cases it is MANDATORY to do so.

I could give a rat's ass who you vote for, what party you are in or not in, or whether you like Bush or Joe Blow for President. Presidents make very unpopular decisions from time to time. The difference between a good leader and a bad leader is their ability to make a decision. Something lost upon President Carter which ended up costing him reelection. It is not a job where you can be a nice guy all the time.

Lastly, re-redeployment of troops. I can empathize with the troops, but the bottom line is that when you take that oath, you make a commitment whereby you commit your life into the hands of the CinC. You are honor and duty bound by that oath, it is a covenant you making freely and willingly.

If you don't like what I have to say, Mr. Livingston, tough shit. But remember one thing, piss in my cornflakes, I will shit in your oatmeal.
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Old 10-04-2006   #38
Denver, Colorado
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One of the first things you learn in the Qu'ran is that it is the most holy and solemn duty of every Muslim to spread the faith.

How can they do this? It is specific, very specific. Convert the non-believers by any means necessary, including the sword. If they do not submit, they it is the solemn duty of all good Muslims to kill the non-believers (meaning: Jews, Christians, Taoists, etc etc.). End of story.
BULLSHIT!! You are mis-informed. Many other Biblical Scholars DO NOT share your opinion. (Helmut Koester, Karen Armstrong, Elaine Pagels) You need to check your sources. And, if you did read the Qu'ran, I think you might have misinterpreted it. That is understandable. Although, your words sound more like something Bill O’Reilly or Jerry Fawell would say.

I took a class on the rise of Islam and the Crusades at Harvard Extension. Your statement is dead wrong. Just curious, if your statement were true, then why was there many centuries where the Christians and Jews were able to live peacefully under Muslim rule? For example: When the Muslims took over and ruled Jerusalem the Jews and Christians were able to peacefully live amongst each other for 5 CENTURIES! (638-1099AD) When Caliph Omar, entered Jerusalem for the first time after it was conquered, he was escorted around by the a Greek Orthodox Patriarch and even wanted to visit the Holy Sepulcher. When it came time for Omar to pray he went outside of the Sepulcher and prayed next to it. Here is another interesting fact: The Jews were not allowed to live in Christian Jerusalem up until the Muslims took over. When Omar took over he changed that and allowed the Jews to come back and live in Jerusalem. Another example of Jews and Christians living in peace while under Muslim rule was when they controlled most of Spain from around 700AD to 1200AD. It wasn't until the Christians pushed out the last of Muslim rule in 1236 that the Christians then started persecuting and murdering the Jews during the Spanish Inquistion. Wow, imagine that! The Jews were safer under Muslim rule than Christian rule. It came as a big surprise to me when I learned it as well. When the Muslims rulers would take over a region it had more to do with the “booty”. It was called the pillage and exchange economy – which was the type of economy during most of the Dark Ages and before the feudal system. If a Christian or a Jew wanted to convert to Islam they were free to do so, but they were never forced and were free to practice any religion they desired under Muslim rule as long as they did not speak out against Mohamed or Allah. Also, Mohamed referred to the Christians and Jews as "The People of the Book." I also believe that in the Qu’ran it tells Muslims to be courteous to the people of the book. It was last year that I read this stuff for school so I would have to look up the exact verse, but it’s in there.

Just because a very small minority of “Islamic militant extremists” drag this religion through the mud, does not mean that the other 1.3 billion Muslims want to kill you at any cost unless you convert. That is a very erroneous way of thinking. I think that this type of misinterpretation happens to all religions...history proves that very well. The Crusades started because Pope Urban II started telling people the tales of the evil Muslims. He told exaggerated stories to boil the blood of his Christian brethren. He tells his brethren to go "fight as a knight of Christ" and kill the evil infidel. History shows us of how his "righteous idea" of who and what he believed Muslims were. His false stories bring horrible deaths to many.

Do you need me to give you anymore examples of why your statement is wrong? Let me know because I can get my notes and texts if you want.
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Old 10-04-2006   #39
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 58
BSOE, you've got a great point ... I can't think of a solid defense. It was only a $1 ...


Feeral Reserve

I don't think the Federal Reserve is a private institution as you claim. Since you've seen "Freedom to Facism", you might also want to read the faq at the Fed's website to gain a better understanding of what a central bank does, and why it is important. Among other things, the Fed tries to manage the money supply to keep unemployment and inflation at tolerable levels. The interest rate hikes we've seen over the last year were actually designed to head off inflation. The Federal Reserve is not pro-inflation and it is not a member of a conspiracy to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich via inflation.

I like wikipedia too, try reading the articles on "Henry Ford" and the "Gold Standard" for an alternate take. Many intelligent people have advocated for a return to the gold standard (and an abondonment of fiat money), but the claim that we should dissolve central banks is, in my view, significantly more radical.

I don't know how to respond efficiently to your quotes.

E. Griffin thinks that central banks are evil, I don't. I also don't think he's a real economist but his quote is almost correct. Fiat money can cause inflation, but so can other things like a supply shock. It would be more accurate to say that mismanagement of a Fiat money supply is one cause of inflation.

Ron Paul is a Texas libertarian. I can't offer a focused rebuttal because he hasn't indentified the method of plunder (inflation perhaps?) or identified "those in previledged finacial positions." I don't think this is a good quote.

Henry Ford died several decades before the US abandoned the gold standard, so we know he wasn't talking about fiat money in the US. I tried to find a date for the quote, but didn't. If he said this prior to 1929, then he was spot on. Our banking system has changed a lot since then.

best wishes, sorry for being rude earlier

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Old 10-04-2006   #40
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C. Springs, Colorado
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You guys are making some good points for thought. Especially those posters that don't start their post with a personal attack of some sort. In other words, I don't find personal attacks entertaining in political debates, so totally miss reading what ever point you were trying to make. You'll get a much better message delivery to your audience if you attack the points of the debate, and not each other.

Just something to think about.

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