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Old 12-15-2006   #11
Salt Lake City, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 171
Over the top, no. Overly cautious when responsible for a group of teenagers out of their element, yes. I think you are missing my point. As a Pastor, I would guess that he would be the one responsible and liable should anything happen. I have taken many a scout group to the climbing gym, but if I was not a AAMGA guide, I would not take them to the real rock, or Mt. Hood. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but in today's litigous society, I wouldn't take the chance, no matter how safe. Hire a guide, get some beacons, shovels, probes and put the liability on them and get after it. They could learn a lot.

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Old 12-17-2006   #12
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 84
Mayflower Gulch. Fun and nice 45 minute approach. Then hit the gentle glades. North facing, on hikers right, as you approach the old cabin. Easy to spot. Do not hike above treeline, and watch your starting point, you will be able to see a hangfire slope above there, but avoidable.

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Old 12-17-2006   #13
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 316
Hey skyman,

Hey I want you to know that I really do appreciate your words of caution. At the same time i want you to know that I am not some guy that all of the sudden thought whats the coolest thing i could do with some teenagers. I have been taking kids into wilderness settings for the past few years. Mostly rock climbing and kayaking and some 4 day back packing trips. Most of my students have a very cautious approach when in a wilderness setting. These students will help create an atmosphere of caution for others. As well I have earned a WFA from NOLS and WMI, this does not give me license to put kids at risk, what it did was to change my approach to high risk activities. A side benefit of trainings like that are that participants are often more sensitive potential accidents. Also I would not be going at it alone. My buddy, a member of the 94 US olympic ski team who has had some experoeince in the back country will be going as well. He has recomended Vail Pass and Berthoud. We aggreed to do some research to see if we could find other places which is why i posted in here. Maybe I should have included this in the first post. Finally I am talking about a group 0f 4-6 very mature students not a group of 10 13 yearolds.

Yes the one peice of information that i am missing is Avalanche awareness for myself rather than soley relying on my buddy. I will look into that...

The parents are cool with it. I am humbled by the way that they trust me with their students.

And yes we are insured for back country experinces. The guy that wrote our policy goes to our church. He has never batted an eye at anytrip i have planned.

Last... When I am talking about backcountry what I mean is "not a resort". That could mean everything from a very steep and dangerous bowl to a mellow meadow. I am airing on the side of mellow meadow.
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Old 12-20-2006   #14
I'm wrong 50% of the time
brendodendo's Avatar
RFV, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1977
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 857
Basil wrote:
Kids will hate a class, but if you read stories of stupid snowmobilers who die and dig a snow trench to show the weak layers, they will enjoy it.

As an avid backcountry user, (snowmobile, snowboard, snowshoes) I resent that comment. Take a look at the statistics posted on CAIC
As you can see... climbers, followed by bc skiers are the largest group, then snowmobilers.
Yes, on a snowmobile, you can get into lots of trouble because you can travel very fast over varried terrain. Yes there are some dumb snowmobilers that will highmark on dangerous slopes and ride terrain that is questionable. The majority of snowmobilers are family people with decnt jobs and a good head on their shoulders. Please do not make assumption about other just because you do not agree with how they recreate.
As for taking teens into the bc. Camp Hale on the SW side of vail pass has some good areas that you could explore. There is also some snowmobile access skiing (ie: sled up trail...ride snowmobiles off the trail) in the area as well a a rental outfit. I'm not saying that this is the way tpo go, but you can ride some great low angle stuff and get a bunch of runs in.[/quote]
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Old 02-04-2007   #15
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 19
Hey sky man, there is no safe place in the back country. just sit at home and take no chances. It's better to die on your couch than to take a chance on getting sued.
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Old 02-06-2007   #16
Salt Lake City, Utah
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 171
Hey Marky Mark. You better go back and reread the posts. He asks "I want to take them some place that is super safe". Can anyone make that guarantee? Can you? I am not talking about myself here. I am talking about someone who has responsibility for others children. Not his children. I personally take much risk in the backcountry. Ice climbing, BC skiing, winter peak bagging, mountaineering etc.. I AM ONLY SPEAKING ABOUT HIS LIABLITY. It sounds as if the poster has backcounty experience. This is good. Even though I feel I am very proficient in the outdoors, I would not take a scout group into that type of element. Or a church group. I WOULD HIRE A GUIDE AND PUT THE LIABILITY ON THEM. I am only speaking of LIABILITY. You have not seen what I have seen. You talk as if I am some kind of pussy afraid of going out, staying home sitting on my couch. Do you want your kids venturing out in the backcountry without the proper gear or training? Not my kids. By your comment, I would venture to guess you are too young to have kids.

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Old 02-06-2007   #17
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Thornton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 231
2 cents --

Statistically the most dangerous thing you will do with these kids is pile them into a vehicle and drive them somewhere.

My wife and I are a part of a Christian Outdoor School, that has been taking kids into the backcountry for 25 years. We were just accredited by the AEE.

Here is the truth, and you all can debate it until spring, if anything happens to a kid during a backcountry trip and the instructor(s) are not properly trained, the parent organization isn't properly insured, and the kids and parents haven't been properly notified of the dangers, you will be sued, you will be found liable and you and the church will lose a great deal.

Tell the kids if they want to go into the backcountry they HAVE to take the avalanche course, not exceptions.

We have to train our staff, we have to train our students, and they all do it or they don't get to go. Give the kids the option, they will have fun in the class, and you will be getting them ready for more than just a day trip to the backcountry. You will be giving them tools to help others as well.

Take the time to do it right.

You ARE a soul, you HAVE a body.

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