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Old 07-25-2005   #21
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Doggy, good info. Solid B. Would've been higher, but demerits for the comment about taking the Crazy 88 in the play hole, but not on the river, already stated playing is not a priority.

Kayakskier... minus, because I did have a pyranha on the list (I just can't spell it), but plus becasue you can. B+

If you feel like answering, are you male or female? Like the pyranha boats I've tried, but the seats pinch my butt. Wondered if it was a woman thing.

Think the Trigger is the next on the demo list.
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Old 07-25-2005   #22
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 58
A perception whip-it would fit nicely into that category too, but maybe you'd just want a deisel 65 so it could hold your hand through the whole process.


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Old 07-25-2005   #23
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Or maybe you could tell me a little more about the perception and why it wouldn't hold my hand and then I could make a well informed decision. A+ for style, D+ for useful info.

Thanks Chief.
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Old 07-26-2005   #24
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 147
EZ? Stubby? I have both and could part with either. I'd give you the "stubby", but my wife would fight you for it, I think . It's a fight I would like to see.

The EZ Im sure will get lots of support from the peanut gallery, which it seems you are vying for.

Just buy a boat and get in the damn thing. It sounds like where your at the only place to go is up--> the learning curve. None of the boats will make you a paddler. The paddler makes the boat. I got an EZ because of what EJ could do w/ it and well, I couldn't.

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Old 07-26-2005   #25
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Parker how much for the stubby?Wise cannot hang and I would love another..
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Old 07-26-2005   #26
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Minus for wanting to see your wife in a fight, but plus, plus for the comment about the boater making the boat, in the end that's really what it comes down to, BUT, the reason the buzz is so great, is that you can get experiences outside your own and see if you can put them to use. I'm the peanut gallery, you are, etc. I believe that's the point of public forums? A (you got a little credit for admiting you sucked compared to EJ, but a minus for thinking you could paddle like him in the first place, lol!)

Do you really want to part with either boat?
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Old 07-26-2005   #27
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 11

I'm a chick boater who paddled, and still have my innazone 222. It's a great boat, stable, easy to roll, and safe. I've paddled it every where, twice down the grand. It doesn't play all that well, but when you learn to play in an innazone, you can play in anything.

I know a couple of guys who like this boat because it's a safe, stable boat.
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Old 07-26-2005   #28
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Finally someone brought up the Inazone. I have only paddled a few of the boats listed but I paddled both the Inazone 220 and the 212 for a few years and loved them both. I think the Inazone is the perfect boat for an improving beginner. I liked it because it had good edges but was easy to roll because they were slanted like an upside-down trapezoid. The edges are important because they will edge and help introduce the concepts of sharp carving into eddies and on waves but they are not so sharp as to catch too often when running the river. The Inazones have a good amount of volume while still being easy to maneuver: there is enough volume in bow to provide good power for punching through stuff and volume in the stern to help keep from getting sucked back into powerful holes. However, do not underestimate the importance of playboating. It is the single best way to improve your roll and get good at being oriented when you come up, which is very important when running more difficult rivers (There is a really good article on this in the most recent CKS magazine.). The Inazone is a great all around kayak because it surfs pretty well (not bad for cartwheels, mystery moves, etc.) but it is still really good in challenging and bigger rivers (I took it down a number of rivers from 5,000 to 15,000 cfs and it did fine). Although I am a river-runner through and through, I spend a fair amount of time in the play park honing my skills when I don't have someone else to boat with. The Inazone will do it all. I now paddle and S6, which is basically an Inazone but it everything better (the only exception I have found is that it doesn't pull out of super-sticky holes quite as easily). I would highly recommend this, too. However, I cannot stress how important individual fit is. If you don't fit in a boat well, then you can't paddle it well.
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Old 07-26-2005   #29
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 93
Ok Wisegirl, You've found an interesting approach to a common topic and piqued my interest so here goes...

1. You want a modern planing hull short boat. This takes advantage of ease of handling, turning, predictability, and modern outfitting, which allows someone not familiar with what good outfitting is to still achieve a good fit. Think of the importance of fitting your alpine ski boots. Boat fit is no different

2. Which category boat is best for you.
River running creek boat - designed to keep you on the surface and handle more vertical river/creek situations
Pros - Easy to handle, predictable, easy to roll
Cons - If you want to play and who doesn't, they are not designed for this. Can you say Eddy flower?

River Running Play boat - Designed to be stable, predictable, easy to handle through class 4 and easy to roll. Will not do as well as the river running creekers on more vertical, but not an issue for class 3 and most class 4. Since your question is for class 3, this is not a disadvantage.
Pros - designed specifally to enable an safe stable learning curve for river running, while allowing you to develop your play skills. Design concept is to be predictable for river runners first, and play second. Reverse order of priorities for play specific boats.
These boats are ideal for people to learn to boat in.

I recommend river running play as the design priority aligns with your main objective.

3. Now you're ready to pick the boat. I won't comment on boats I have not paddled, but I have paddled the Jackson Fun Series, Pyrhana I serieis, and WaveSport EZ. I don't think Dagger has a good contender in this category. Normally I'd consider an EZG as I know of several people who like them, but you already have eliminated this one.

Bottom line - The Jackson Fun of the appropriate size for you is a choice you can't go wrong with. I paddle a Super Fun and a Super Star. The Fun series boats are designed to be stable, predictable, easy to handle, easy to roll, and they handle big water and class 4 no problem. They will suppport your play skill development quite well. I paddle the Super Star on class 3 and the Super Fun on class 4.

There is an advantage to getting the 2005 Jackson's over the 2004's. The backband is improved and the hippads fit most people more comfortably. Whichever boat you get, I recommend getting the new Jackson Happy Seat. This will improve the fit and hence boat control in any boat, and will make you more comfortable as well.

I appreciate that you are looking for basis for choice as opposed to unsupported conclusions. Hope you find this helpful and good luck.

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Old 07-26-2005   #30
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There's clearly more misogynistic fun to be had involving Stubby's and playing in holes, but I'll stick with the extra credit.

Question for KSC - I hear what you're saying about not wanting to out grow the bigger boats, but what about the confidence boosting feature that comes from feeling solid? I liked the 2Fun, but many a good, class V boater has told me that it's stupid to start out with a playesque boat and to get a season in, in a more stable boat. What say you to that for extra credit?
A couple of good points have already been nailed about why I'd go for the river/play boat rather than creeker/river:
- The bigger boats aren't much fun for playing
- Most boaters end up doing some playboating or downriver play even if they'd rather be creeking
- Playboating can be really valuable for beginners: you can perfect your roll in a safe environment, practice getting out of holes, learn the feel of different water features and how to work with the water dynamic.

I'd add one more comment. A boat like the Diesel will allow you get away with some slop in your paddling skills. That's why I think it's well suited for someone who is not particularly aggressive and easily scared from the sport with a swim or a run-in with the river bed, or someone who's more interested in just getting out on the water with some friends and paddling around. There's definitely an advanced paddler customer for these boats as well, but we're talking about beginners.

So the original point is: let's say in your Diesel you run some class III water: you take a terrible line into a curling wave, get pushed into a hole, barely punch through it, then eddie out below leaning the wrong way with a bad angle, and a poorly timed stroke, but come through it unscathed. What have you learned? Nothing. So you high five your friends and say it's time for some class IV action. You go into the same feature in class IV water, but this time the water's big enough that you get flipped on the curling wave, roll up stuck in the hole, get flipped again, swim, lose all your gear and swim a half mile because you can't cross the strong eddie line. Now you've learned some valuable lessons about boat angle and stroke timing going through waves, rolling up and getting out of a hole, and crossing eddies (namely that you're lacking some skills) but you just lost all your gear, broke your ankle, and half your leg is black and blue.

Wouldn't you have rather learned your lesson in class III water (where boat recovery is often fairly easy and serious injuries are rare) with your smaller volume, more squirrelly boat that worked you for using poor paddling skills?

In short, boats with a play design help you learn your skills through trial and error in smaller water.

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