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Old 03-29-2010   #21
Phillips's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorasta
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 843
So how do we get more since Ian snagged the only one at confluence?

I will prolly break my year old jefe this year and I'm not buying another one even though I like the design.

Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
I just got my Pure. Similar to El Flaco, my dream boat would have been a nomad 8.5 in prijon plastic. The pure seems pretty close to that.

I haven't taken the pure on any real whitewater yet, just outfitted it and did a few slalom workouts at confluence. I've paddled a nomad 8.5 and a jefe grande over the last several seasons.

My first impressions...

I put the pure side by side with one of the many nomad carcasses in my garage. They are both the same length and have similar bows. I measured the circumference of the bow in front on the cockpit and close to the nose and they are almost exactly the same. The stern of the pure is slightly smaller than the nomad, measuring about an inch or two less in circumference around the stern just behind the cockpit. I think I'd rather have that bit of extra stern volume the nomad has to minimize unintentional squirts, but have yet to really see how it handles going through holes. In contrast, I feel like the grande has more volume than I need. Typical paddling weight for me is 190-200 with 5-10 lbs of safety gear plus weight of gear I wear.

The hull of the prijon is kind of like a cross between a nomad and a burn. Its got a smooth bow to stern rocker profile. At the bow there is no edge, but as you get further away from the bow, the edge slowly gets more defined, coming to maximum edge under the cockpit. The hull is slightly crowned with a semi displacement hull that transitions over two close together somewhat soft edges. Instead of hull to sidewall with one edge, the pure has two angular edge transitions closely spaced together. The boat seems to have a good bit of rocker in the pics, but it doesn't seem as much on the water. It is more than the embudo.

The pure feels easier to turn than the jefe or the nomad, requiring less power to spin it around. This should make it a fairly nimble boat. I haven't really dialed the edge in yet, but its predictably easier to use it to carve vs. the grande. Time will tell, but the pure might have a nice balance between ease of turning and edge control for holding a line. The nomad and the grande were opposite sides of the spectrum on this. The nomad held a line but was more difficult to turn. The grande turned pretty easily, but was harder to hold a line. I think that pure will be inbetween somewhere.

The outfitting of the pure is comfy. Didn't take me long to get it pretty dialed in. Its got a ratcheting backband, and a comfy seat. The seat pad goes over the hip pads similar to the jefe badass outfitting, but not over the backband too. The foot brace bulkhead is interesting. Its on a sliding metal rail for stability, but a 2" cam strap type device holds the tension to keep the footbrace in place instead of the common screws in most other boats. Adjusting the bulkhead is super simple with a pull on the straps to tighten it up, or loosen the backpack type buckle to get more space. I've got some concerns about this system though. First off it seems overly complicated and somewhat heavy. Also, even though the straps are taught and on the side of the boat, it seems like having a strap in there has the rare potential for entanglement. I might experiment with taking the whole setup out and simply putting in some foam or an old nomad foot brace. In the end I don't think its a huge deal... its super convenient for those that like it, and it you don't want it, pull it out and put something else up there.

In general the outfitting seems a bit over the top. Its comfortable, easily adjustable and fuction, but the cost is lots of screws, parts, pieces etc. I like the jackson philosophy of simple but fucntional outfitting with minimal holes in the boat and less screws and gadgets. I think if boat manufacturers took a more spartan backpacking mindset to boat outfitting, several pounds could be shaved off the boat weight. My guess is that most folks will enjoy the multiple adjustments and ease of outfitting and won't worry too much about the complexity or the weight.

I don't think the lack of a pillar in the prijon is a downside. The main reason most boats have pillars is that standard plastic is too weak to structurally resist folding in a pin. The prijon plastic is much stronger and has the hull integrity to resist folding on its own without a pillar. Not having a pillar makes it easier to get your legs out of the boat as your legs don't need to come past the pillar before they come out of the boat. If you are really worried about the pillar, simply glue a foam pillar from a nomad in there. I've got loads of them if anyone wants one.

The lack of a pillar makes for pretty slick overnighter packing. Been planning an overnighther, and packing all my gear into the pure was pretty easy.

Of course one of the main reasons I am interested in the pure is the plastic. Cracking boats sucks. I've spent countless hours welding my boats and taking the seat out and putting it back in. I've also had more runs that I would care turn from classic creeking missions to sketchy squirtboat submarine missions in a cracked boat.

I'm going to reserve final judgement on the Pure until I get some days on some difficult water under my belt in it, but my first take on it is that its a good boat.

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Old 03-29-2010   #22
hullflyer's Avatar
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 187
The shape looks like a classic fishform. Corran Addison flirted with the shape in the Riot Big Gun. I thought it wasn't the right shape for pure creeking but rather bigger water runs like Gore and Cross.
I side with the majority of posters on Prijon/Eskimo Plastic. I had a couple of Eskimo's and can say nothing comes close to the Durability or Performance of the German Blowmolded HTP Plastics. Going on my 4th year of my Jefe'. Still haven't broke it, but I don't live on the Front Range!


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Old 03-29-2010   #23
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
I pre-ordered mine and picked it up from wildwasser. Didn't snag the one at confluence, and it seems they have a demo too. I think CKS is getting a couple as well.

Agree with hull flyer on the pure creeking vs. bigger rivers design. I don't think what the pure or jackson villain or other combo boats try to accomplish is a bad thing though. I spend just as much time on higher volume runs like gore, or clear creek and bailey at high flow as I do on steeper low volume runs like OBJ or SSV. Seems like a durable boat that can do it all fairly well will be good.

Itchin to get the boat in the water and get the season going.
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Old 03-29-2010   #24
Niwot, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35
Thanks for comments all. I've loaded some pictures here of the new Pure.

I will find that "perspective" shot again, but this is a good head on view "pre Ramcap" molding.

BTW, the New Ramcap is awesome (Glass Filled Poly, super strong and hard). Comes standard on the boat. Also new Thighbraces that you can realy dial to fit.

Great Bow Rocker, nice back deck for laybacks in a pinch, Optimal volume and cockpit size... Soft but noticcable chine (edge) and soft landing bottom.

Nice V-deck on Bow and stern for controlled surfacing. (new Deck fittings not pictured on the Red boat, but here you can see them and the new Thigbraces. You can trim the seat, and micro adjust the bulkhead.

Prijon's experience with Creek boats goes back into the 70's, being one of the first to introduce "volume" (ala Taifun) and Shortness (in their HotDog (7ft 1983) and T-Canyon - 1987) and alsothrough their partnership w/ Eskimo on the Topolino and other boats in that era. The Soft but noticable chines are reminscent of the Rockit, the bow rocker profile, though in a shorter boat is similar to that of the Tornado.

The cost of commissioning molds, and making the needed numbers of boats are both very high in blowmolding. It is because of this that Prijon is not tring to tell you every year that you need to replace the boat you got last year. They need to sell the boat for several years to recoup the investment. On your side, Prijon makes boats that will serve you well and long, and be a boat you are having fun paddling 5 and more years down the line. It is not uncommon to have a 10, 15 or even 20 year old Prijon be completly river ready and be used continuiusly through that sort of period.

I will join parts of the conversation later. The Pure is out there at several stores by now. Check it out. Its a nice piece of work. If you get one, it is an investment and not an expense, as its value will be something you can enjoy for a long time.

thanks for your comments everyone!
(Wildwasser- Boulder)
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Old 03-29-2010   #25
Niwot, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35
Re "Fishform" or the converse "Swede Form" and the Pure.
These terms are normally a measure of whether the wide point is in front or behind the seat. I have not measure, but I expect it is at the Seat. One boat I made, the Kodiak, has a "Fishform" w/ the wide point at the knees. This makes the boat really good in following seas (yes in Sea Kayaking!). In Whitwater width at the seat is normally best IMHO, though there are boats that have gone one way or another (Hurricane and Rockit were Swedform) but I am sure Prijon doesn't design considering whether Fish or Swede etc.. They work to build a boat they like and which paddles well, and will test several generations of prototype before making the blowmolding mold. This one could be a fishform, but a wide and comfortable one to be sure.

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Old 03-30-2010   #26
Electric-Mayhem's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 434
Here is a great video of how Prijon kayaks are made, much more controlled and scientific, and a higher grade of manufacture then rotomolding....

I worked as the shipping guy for Wildwasser when the Embudo first came out. There were concerns about the lack of a support pillars for it too. I will say you could jump on it, and it would flex and implode a bit, but once it got to a certain point, there was nothing you could do to make it go further. The stern was worse then the bow for this. One of the reason for this was the deck of the Embudo is pretty round and flat. Having the v-shaped deck on the Pure seems like it would add a ton of structural stiffness to the boat. I would have no problem at all with the lack of a pillar in the Pure. I'd prefer it actually, since there is a ton more leg room and less to keep you from getting caught exiting the boat.

As for the HTP, its superior in almost every way. The only place I can think where it isn't ideal, is getting sharp edges like some of the modern playboats have. Since those edges get worn off relatively quickly anyways, there is no real reason why that is really a problem to me.

HTP is double extruded (once coming from the holding tank and again as its extruded into the tube shape you see in the video), which is one of the reasons why it is so superior in quality. That double extrusion makes it very dense and uniform, which adds a flexible but solid factor to it. The density also keeps it from "peeling" as much. The amount of precision they can have with the manufacturing process also provides a consistently high quality product that you don't get with Rotomolding.

Not sure if you remember the old days of the Riot Xytec plastic, but it was very hit or miss. When it hit, those boats lasted FOREVER. Unfortunately, that didn't happen very often, and they missed a lot with it. A miss with Xytec meant you almost assuredly were going to break your kayak. For every boat they seemed to get right, there were 3 or 4 or more they didn't, and they were pretty notorious for breaking during that time. I had 3-5 friends who owned a Riot during that time (me included) and all but one of them broke their stuff. The one who didn't was a buddy with an "ultralight" (read thinner plastic) Riot Disco that he beat the crap out of and never cared how many rocks he scraped on. That boat lasted him a very long time.

Anyways, any question of Prijon plastic being superior is really moot, since it just is. I have no affiliation with any paddling company these days (and haven't for years). Honestly, I only went boating twice last year, so that says something. In all the time I worked at Wildwasser (nearly 2 years as I was like 8 years ago now), I can't remember a boat coming back with a cracked hull. A few issues with hardware and outfitting, but nothing to do with the hull. The only issue with the Embudo was the nose "pig nosing" (getting dented in), but that was quickly remedied with a nose cap. This boat already has that, so its good to go. Outfitting looks to be much much much better then Prijons of old too. Definitely a boat worth looking at.

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Old 04-06-2010   #27
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 393
If Ian hasn't broken his Pure by the time I need a new boat I'm buying a Pure. I've said before that I'd pay $2K for a Jefe/Nomad/Habitat in Prijon plastic with a 5 year warranty. Looks like this is it and I won't even have to pay $2K.

Hopefully this will inspire the other manufacturers to up their game in a hurry.
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Old 04-06-2010   #28
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
After months of drooling, waiting, and dreaming, my Pure fantasy has been brought back to reality. The Pure is a good boat, but I'm just a little too big for it.

When I saw the Pure had the same specs listed as the large nomad (my primary boat for years) I ordered one sight unseen. Unfortunately specs on paper and floating on the water are apples to oranges. I'm 195-200 lbs and I feel like the Pure floats me too low in the water. After much deliberation, I'm bringing her down to confluence kayaks to sell her off. I guess I learned my lesson on demoing boats before buying.

I think the pure would work great for boaters in the 160-180lb range, which seems to be a large user group. I also think the pure would be good for heavier guys that like a sporty nimble creeker. Personally I want a boat I can creek in, run bigger volume stuff in, and have enough volume in the boat that I can put 20+ lbs of overnight gear in it without overweighting the boats floatation. I want a creeker than I am comfortably in the middle of the weight range in, and I feel I'm closer to the top end for the pure.

If they made a pure that was just a bit bigger, it would probably be my go to boat.

Go check it out at confluence and take a demo out. If you like it, buy mine while you are at it!
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Old 04-06-2010   #29
Boise, Idaho
Paddling Since: ~92
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
If they made a pure that was just a bit bigger, it would probably be my go to boat.
I'm feel the same as you do about the boat size, I'm 210 and now own a Pure. It is somewhat small - floats low in the water but I'll deal with it for a while.

The good news is that I got an email from Prijon today and they are going to make a small and an XL version of the PURE: Prijon News This is what they said: "The boat will come in late 2010 for the season 2011. We are in the testing process."

I can't wait. Maybe if a lot of people would email Prijon they'd hurry it up a bit...
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Old 04-06-2010   #30
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 393
Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
After much deliberation, I'm bringing her down to confluence kayaks to sell her off.
Dammit Ian! You were supposed to be my durability tester.

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