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Old 06-23-2011   #51
Aurora, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1976
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by chop217 View Post
almost all the commercial raft guides that I have seen while out kayaking have at least one or two locking carabiners on their waist as a flip line. Those guys have more practice than most.... seems to work.
I am aware of the costume guides wear, even when it isn't Halloween. I would take the advice of veteran Idaho cat boaters over most commercial day trip guides. The difference between a first time rafter and a raft guide is the same as the difference between a first time snowboarder and a snowboard instructor.

The increased utility of the bungy flip line over a waist worn flip line was also posted.

If you recall, someone posted that the 6-10? foot bungy flip line mounted tight against the bottom frame rail of the cataraft frame was an entrapment hazard. It is hardly more of an entrapment issue than a frame crossbar is.

There is some loss of leverage using the bottom frame rail. The top rail would work better, but would be problematic from an access and entrapment perspective.

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Old 05-30-2012   #52
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 184
I finally got around to making a set of these and am totally impressed with how well they work. I used them twice in the past couple of weeks and they are way easier to use than the system I was on before (8 ft. of 1" flat webbing off a D-ring). Check out the pics here:

Homebrew Bungee Flip Lines | Western Rafter

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Old 05-30-2012   #53
North Bend, Washington
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 476
Those look very nifty. I may have to get me some supplies to make one of those.
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Old 05-30-2012   #54
mrett's Avatar
Lincoln City, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 96
Bungy Flip lines work Great !! Just because you don't understand .... "the earth is flat"

Since when do we look to 20 something class 2-3 river guides for fashion statements or safety advice ??

The times my boat is most difficult to re-flip seems to parallel yakker play boaters that like beer on the trip ..... .02
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Old 05-30-2012   #55
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,347
Keith- i see you attached to d rings instead of the bottom of your frame. I have mine attached to the frame. How significant do you think the height distance is in affecting the ease of reflip? You reflipped from your knees i think? I can do that but it's much slower and more difficult, and my reflip is bomber except i do need to get up on the tube on my feet. I like my bungee tucked up safely but the safest thing is a reflip done as fast as possible in the window of opportunity.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 05-31-2012   #56
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by lhowemt View Post
How significant do you think the height distance is in affecting the ease of reflip? You reflipped from your knees i think?
I reflip standing on the tube. Could definitely generate enough moment from my knees for an unloaded boat, but it is good practice to stand anyway. You need the extra leverage of standing when you have gear. It is also easier (for me) to get back in the seat from a standing position. I kind of jump into the seat as the boat comes over on top of me...

As for the location of the attach points, I think yours win. I am drawing free body diagrams and doing trig right now...I will put some stuff on optimal placement on my site later today.
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Old 06-01-2012   #57
Searching for water....., Nevada
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 168

Well after watching both lhowemt and pearen flip their boats back sucessfully with these types of flip lines, I have decided to give them a try. I have just built one flip line using pearen's design for trial and error this weekend. While building it I came up with some different ideas that I thought I would throw out there.

First is whether the tension to reflip the boat is on the bungee or on the webbing. In building my first protoytpe I found that the larger (3/8"-1/2")bungees have lots of strength but not a lot of stretch, ~50%. Smaller diameter bungees (1/4") have much larger stretch upwards of 100%. I think with the larger bungees the flip is relying on the bungee itself for the tension to reflip the boat. If you wanted to use the tubular webbing you would need your bungee to be able to stretch longer that the webbing.

The alternate design that I am going to propose uses multiple smaller bungees and tubular webbing, which is a very specific length. This will require more time in the water upside down to determine the correct length. If you can get on youe boat and figure out the most powerful and comfortable flip position and you know where you attachment points are, you can get a length for your tensioned webbing. Your other design criteria is the length between the attachment points. Make your multiple small bungees just shorter than this length, just as before, to keep tension on the lines tucked against the boat. The multiple bungees will provide the neccessary tension to keep the lines tight against the boat but will have the stretch so that you can flip the boat using the tension on the webbing and not the bungees. There will be some resistance so you can keep your balance but not so much as to pull you back. Obviously, the number of small bungees will take some trial and error.

So I will probably build a type of each and give them a try. I will report back with what I find.

Any input on the design ideas?

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Old 06-01-2012   #58
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at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,347
I ended up doing flip practice on a lake working to get the length just right. I wouldn't use the smaller bungee, because it is going to stretch too much over time and fail faster. I get a bit of sag on my most-used one as it is. Mine definitely extends to the length of the webbing, not the bungee, and my bungee is 3/8". I think it may stretch more than you think when extended during a reflip, and I feel this is critical as the bungee isn't going to hold up with too many full-weight extensions.

I think Keith's design is great, although I'd use heavy weight polyester thread not the stuff that comes with the speedy-stitcher. I have some yellow I can spare if you want.

To get the right length, I just worked with one that had no buckle on the end, and worked with a knot. I've always meant to replace it, and haven't. Now I probably can since I'm off the water for a couple of weeks.

Another thing on their use is that it is really important to reflip in a constant motion from a crouched position. If you need to stand up on your tube and pause, you're going to have a hard time in really tough water and just fall down. I once commented not liking the bungees, because of the difficulty in getting up on the tube, holding balance, while the bungee is working against me and pulling and jerking. In rough water you've got to be able to start from your frame, step up to your tube and lean back in a pretty continuous motion.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 06-01-2012   #59
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portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,188
so I went to Andy and Bax this weekend and got some 3/8" shock cord and 1" tubular webbing. Its overkill but I figured in a pinch (not needing a flip line at that particular moment) that I could use these for other things like wrapping an anchor around a rock etc.

I have an ocelot and a Leopard, but god help me if the Leopard ever flips its not going to reflip without about 5 people helping and its probably going to be on a massive section of water that washes out into a pool somewhere. So I'm not too worried about it.

the Ocelot however I will find myself in a lot of solo spots where I am possibly going to need this, plus be able to flip it by myself.

The D-rings are about 7' apart so I purchased 8' of cord and 12' of webbing.

I intend on using standard climbing carabiners to clip these to the drings of the boat. Again, if I'm in a pinch somewhere with no chance of flipping I want this gear to be able to double as general purpose rescue gear. Plus I've seen the simpler clips snap under tension and I don't want to deal with that.

I'm going to start with the 12' and then shorten it (with knots) if that's what it takes. The full force has to be on the tubing, not the bungy this is only used to keep it from dangling in the water ...

also, if you are standing over one tube the cord/angles need to be such that you can reach the three feet across the frame, grab the cord, do a balancing act as you stand up, and then do a clean jerk to extend the boat. Its probably going to take some trial and error to get the length right ...

I will practice and adjust this on a lake but I think it should work ...

Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it "guaranteed", I will. I got spare time.
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