Back to boats— The cheapest used rafts are mostly "bucket boats" that don't have floors set up to drain water, or "self bail." A bilge pump is mandatory. In big water you need crew working with bailers (any sort of flexible scoop thing).
But if you're not going to run the large, an older high quality bucket boat (Avon, Riken, etc) is an inexpensive way to get on the water: many good ones for $400-$750. Also, you can use your frame, oars, and rigging in the self-bailer you'll get eventually.
I always advise starters to look at a cat. I build my own frames, and a cat allows a lot more scope for changing basic stuff like width. But there aren't as many quality cat tubes on the used market.
I'd avoid beat-up commercial boats, especially those with faded colors, lots of scuffs, exposed weave, or patches.
After buying a PVC boat, it is important to realize that PVC is much stiffer. I just bought a used Maravia and cannot roll it up to fit in the back of my SUV "lite." I wish i could and will probably buy a hypalon boat for my next boat. If you don't have a truck and/or trailer, hypalon might be the way to go.
Lots of advice. My 2 cents says if your broke, then buy a used or even a bucket boat made out of hypalon. If you can't afford a new good boat then buy a used good boat. I own both hyp & pvc, friends have too. And any day, of any blind taste test, Hyp, even really old hyp(30yr) is more better. Spend your money on wood oars, they will do more in terms of performance than any other item..... Back to boats.. the one really big thing I don't think got mentioned is the distance from the top of the floor to the top of the tubes. Leg room, but really cooler and dry box room. More is better. It seems like the pvc boat don't have much, and coolers and such stick way up above the frame/decks. And it seems hyp (expesally avon/hyside) boats the cooler/dryboxs are damn near level w/ frame and decks.Love that..
And don't be qoutin me any spec sheets, it all changes when the boat is loaded and on the water.....
I have a 14' NRS expedition and I love it. It is great in big water, super stable, tracks well, and you can really pack it down for long trips. I use it a lot to R-2 and it works really well. That is a great size, and I think NRS has the best quality out there. I agree that used comercial boats are usually not worth their money since they have so much time on the river, in the sun and being "thrown" around. You will not be able to find a used private raft for sale that has 1/2 the wear a comercial raft does. I say stay away from bucket boats, and you will see why by your 2nd or 3rd trip when your paddelers are actually paddeling and not bailing. A raft is a big investment, and it is worth spending some money on. If you can, guide for a year and then try to buy a new raft through the company at wholesale.
i saw this older post, but wanted to throw out some additional questions. i too am in the market for a "first raft" but i do have one condition - i want a small self-bailer that my wife and i can R-2 with relative ease on the likes of browns and shoshone (ie up to CL III), but also run the likes of numbers or slaughterhouse with a decent crew of r-3 or r-4 paddlers. we also want to be able run it as a paddle raft with less experienced friends, or possibly the two of us with non-paddle family members. finally, i would like to be able to put a simple oar frame on it with one front seat for a small fishing raft.
a hyside "mini-me" seems too small at only 9-0, but hyside also makes a 10-6 boat in their rio bravo series. the rio bravo series is still hypalon, but a lower denier than the outfitter series (1100 in rio bravo vs. 1680 or 2500 on the outfitter series). the next size up is 11-6 in the rio bravo, but that seems too big to r-2.
so my questions are this:
- can a 10-6 boat size be r-2'd with ease?? i have seen some pics of folks going r-1 in the mini-me, so it seems the 10-6 would r-2 well and even be fine with up to 4 or 5 paddlers.
- any experience with the rio bravo series, and durability of 1100 denier weight tubes and floors? it seems like this is their "recreational" use series, which would seem to suit me fine (we also kayak, so proable 20d or less of use per year on the raft)
hit me with any and all comments. thanks in advance.
We bought a 14' Rio Bravo this spring and have had a blast with it, no issue thus far.
We oared down the Upper C and actually R-2'd down Filter Plant at high water and The lower small section of Browns at low water - no issues R-2ing thru Seidels at all.
That being said a 14'er is a little harder to manuever so we are purchasing the Rio Bravo 11-6 next spring to take down some class III's R-2ing and overnighters just the 2 of us.
While it might be a touch bigger than you are looking for, I have to concur with all the people talking about 14's here. Its probably a bit big for R2ing, but will excell in so many more areas.
I have a 14' Avon SB and it does just about everything for me. I ran Slaughterhouse at 1500 or so this year in it with 4 paddlers. The next weekend I was on Cataract at 52k with the oar rig on it. The next two weekends we ran back to back Shoshone laps with 6 paddlers at 12k. Plus two Ruby/Horse/Westy and one Browns trip so far this year . . .
Since you already kayak, I would really think about this size boat. Being a very common size, they are easier to pick up used. My 98' Avon was $2200 and has a long life ahead of it. Check the comercial outfits in your area or the Ark valley, fall is a good time to buy.
I'm lookin' to get my first raft too. Anybody got any tips on where to look besides the fore-mentioned. I checked out the swap forums on this site as well as craigslist.
There is a guy out of Saliad...River Boat Works. I got a 14' Highside for $2200. A little more than I wanted to spend, but it was my upper limit of what I had to spend. I am very happy that I did. The boat is in amazing condition and I will have it for a very long time. Spend the the little extra and get something decent. I mean come on it is only $$, which you can save again, but think about all the fun times you will be missing out on by not having the raft. If you die tomorrow, no one is going to remember you for how much $$ you have in the bank...they are going to remember you for how you lived your life. I am broke, but couldn't be happier...except if for I had a frame...Anyone have a frame they are looking to sell? Until that time "All FORWARD!"
I know that RiverBoat Works keeps a list of names, and as stuff comes in he goes down the list. You should give him a call and see what he has on the lot.
i saw this older post, but wanted to throw out some additional questions. i too am in the market for a "first raft" but i do have one condition - i want a small self-bailer that my wife and i can R-2 with relative ease on the likes of browns and shoshone (ie up to CL III), but also run the likes of numbers or slaughterhouse with a decent crew of r-3 or r-4 paddlers. we also want to be able run it as a paddle raft with less experienced friends, or possibly the two of us with non-paddle family members. finally, i would like to be able to put a simple oar frame on it with one front seat for a small fishing raft.
a hyside "mini-me" seems too small at only 9-0, but hyside also makes a 10-6 boat in their rio bravo series. the rio bravo series is still hypalon, but a lower denier than the outfitter series (1100 in rio bravo vs. 1680 or 2500 on the outfitter series). the next size up is 11-6 in the rio bravo, but that seems too big to r-2.
so my questions are this:
- can a 10-6 boat size be r-2'd with ease?? i have seen some pics of folks going r-1 in the mini-me, so it seems the 10-6 would r-2 well and even be fine with up to 4 or 5 paddlers.
- any experience with the rio bravo series, and durability of 1100 denier weight tubes and floors? it seems like this is their "recreational" use series, which would seem to suit me fine (we also kayak, so proable 20d or less of use per year on the raft)
hit me with any and all comments. thanks in advance.
I have r-2 Browns and Numbers in a 12' Riken with ease. This is at both high and low flows. When r-2ing it, you are so light it is easy to maneuver around. So a 10'6" would be fine too but I would recommend a 12' over the smaller boat. With the 12' you have the capacity to take some friends or gear with you and it is still small enough for the more technical runs. Yet if you want to run something like Westwater, you can still do it.
The best beginner raft is the one you can afford to get your ass on the water THIS season. If you get a reasonable deal, you can sell it next year for what you paid for it. Even if you sell for less next year, just look at that $200 or $300 you lost on the boat as "rental" for a season of slamming into rocks, & learning about rafting, patching, and replacing D-rings and footcups. In my ghetto raftin' days I went through a few boats and sold each for about as much as, if not more than, what I had paid for them (after new D-rings & footloops). Often you can buy old PFDs, wetsuits, booties, splash gear, and paddles from outfitters for (relatively) cheap. The season for swaps is coming up too.
Hell, throw down $600 on a bucket boat and even though you'll be starting at the very bottom you'll "build character" and more importantly, you'll be having a blast on the water this weekend. Your friend's college-age pals will be so psyched to just be rafting whitewater for the cost of beer they won't give a shit about bailing some after each rapid - and you don't have to own the boat for the rest of your life.
Get a cheap beater boat and get on the water. By the time next season comes around, you'll know a lot more about what you're getting into and what you want (frame, oars, rubber). Then you can bide your time until that killer deal comes along 'cause you're not standing on the bank watching other people have all the fun. When the deal comes along, jump on the better boat/rig and sell the ghetto boat to help offset the cost. Repeat as necessary and in a few years you can have a sweet rig dialed in - all purchased on the yearly installment plan.
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I have to concur with all the people talking about 14's here.
Ditto. With a 14' boat You can R-2 Brown's one week and be launching it on the Westwater, Cat, or the Grand the next week. If you're going to be a one-boat rafter in Colorado, 14' is the optimum length. If not that, get at least a 12' or 13' - you'll want to do overnights and on R-3, -4 trips and it'll handle like a sports car. A 14' is good because it seems like it carries twice the gear of a 13' boat. And you'll still be able to go overnight with a couple of friends running paddle until you get a rowing setup, which is when it gets really good.
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I just bought a used Maravia and cannot roll it up to fit in the back of my SUV "lite."
If its a post-1988 Maravia, its PVC coated with polyurethane, which is a whole lot stiffer/thicker than plain PVC and shouldn't be considered the norm. Owning a Maravia without a trailer would be a lot of work, the boats are so heavy and stiff.
For a more compact roll job, try reversing your electric blower during the last part of deflating the boat, then closing the valves after sucking the air out before you roll it. That usually cuts the rolled size by about a third or so.
For years I had gear lust for a Maravia (one much newer and smaller than the lunker I once had) but have given them second thought after hearing that they flip very easily in big water due to the high kick (fore and aft upturn of the tubes). The high kick apparently causes them to stall when hitting a big wave rather than punch through (followed by the surf, then the flip). It sounds reasonable to me and I'm all ears for real experience others have had on this issue.
Remember that over the next month or so there are going to be a lot of good deals on used rafts so keep your eyes peeled and ask questions. Find someone you can call and get advice from when you find something that looks good. There are still three months of the season to go, depending on what kind of splash gear you've got.
There's lots of good advice in this thread - thanks everyone for sharing their experience. I wish I'd had a place like this to learn from when I was starting out...
SYOTR (See You On The River),
-AH
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Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
Last edited by Andy H.; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:04 AM.
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