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Old 04-29-2009   #21
 
Laramie, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 170
Note of Prussiks

Over the last few months I've been refining, updating my pin kit. This might be more common knowledge than I thought, but one thing I have found was that if you are using a smaller diameter compact rope, as most kayakers do, (hopefully spectra for this application) you need smaller diameter prussik loops. The best guideline I could find is that for maximum grip your prussiks need to be at least 2mm smaller in diameter than your main rope, so as was mentioned a 4mm prussik would probably be your best bet for most of the 1/4" spectra ropes out there.
Personally I think prussiks are simple enough and easy enough to tie, as well as having many applications/uses that I don't have any tiblocs. There are a variety of different types and configurations of prussiks that seem practical enough in a kayaking environment to make them worth some study.
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Old 04-29-2009   #22
 
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Durango, Colorado
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dude was right tiblocks are harsh on rope... if you use them as ascenders for aid climbing. They are not intended to replace an ascender as many climbers try to use them. For the one time emergency use of unpinning someone, I don't care if I need to buy a new throw rope after. Besides, I just make the dude whose life I saved buy it. I can not see a tibloc causing a rope to fail when used in an emergency.

As far as the reverso, the new reverso 3, and the ATC guide both can be used on ropes down to 7mm according to manufacturer, which in real world mean much smaller, plus, you can add friction to the system by using 2 carabiners with the reverso. Plus they can be released to lower.

Also, the friction thing is interesting, because when you use the reverso where I stated, friction will not matter as when you activate the z-drag all the load is transfered from the reverso onto the z-drag untill the pull is stopped, at which point the load goes back to the reverso.
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Old 04-29-2009   #23
 
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Durango, Colorado
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dgons gives good advice. I'm a kayaker not a gear hauling rafter. But I do carry a skinny line and a normal 1/2 inch rope in by yak. If I were unpinning someone it would probably be with the heavier line, but I think the system will work on the skinny line. I'll have to figure that out. I don't like the skinny stuff cause it burns the hands, but it is nice to have cord in my pfd

Is it 2:1 for one pulley/tibloc.? I was thinking going back and fourth 3 times. First to reverso set up as second, then to tiblock/pulley, to pulley, back to another tiblock pulley, back to pulley, back to reverso pulley -> pullers. I use a similar set up with my slack line and I can pull prettey hard, but it still takes 3 people to get a 50 footer up tight. It has a ton of friction because I just wrap it around a tree, sometime with a towel. I imagine without pulleys just using carabiners, with that much advantage I could pull in excess of 1000lbs myself.

My reason for asking is I am building this setup now, to replace prusiks for this season. I'd really like to test this stuff out and find out just how much force I can excert with the system. I'm just not convinced 3 prusiks and 4 carabiners is going to pull it off intime.
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Old 04-29-2009   #24
 
Cisco, Utah
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Don't find much use in more than 3:1 or 4:1. Only time I have used more is pulling trees out of the river. One problem is the more mechanical advantage/the less distance the pull/the more rope you have to pull. ;
ie. 3:1 means you get 3 times the force exerted on the pull, but also have to pull 3 times the rope (3 feet of pull for 1 foot of actual movement.) You get up into 9:1 and you need heaps of gear, Lots of rope/and or resetting your system constantly and maybe losing any gain when you set the break. More simply, you just dont get much bang for the buck. 3:1 & 4:1 are simple and effective.

As to merits of tiblocs etc... that stuff is cool and all, I say keep it simple, Light & Fast ~~ Prussik knot is pretty damn simple. And i can cut it if I need to.
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Old 04-29-2009   #25
 
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San Juans, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName View Post
Don't find much use in more than 3:1 or 4:1. Only time I have used more is pulling trees out of the river. One problem is the more mechanical advantage/the less distance the pull/the more rope you have to pull. ;
ie. 3:1 means you get 3 times the force exerted on the pull, but also have to pull 3 times the rope (3 feet of pull for 1 foot of actual movement.) You get up into 9:1 and you need heaps of gear, Lots of rope/and or resetting your system constantly and maybe losing any gain when you set the break. More simply, you just dont get much bang for the buck. 3:1 & 4:1 are simple and effective.

As to merits of tiblocs etc... that stuff is cool and all, I say keep it simple, Light & Fast ~~ Prussik knot is pretty damn simple. And i can cut it if I need to.
Agreed, once you complicate things you will definently need another set of hands to 'mind' the system, ie move prusicks, etc.... Mt experience with complicated systems come from vertical hauling, where gravity allows to have a self minding system, little different on a horizontal pull

with that extra set of hands, you could just uses a 3:1 and have 2 people pull. Never quantified it, but with solid footing 2 people can get close to 1000lbs+ of M.A. We unpinned a raft with a 3:1 and several people pulling, got to the point that even though we tied to frame corners(equalized) that another pull would have ripped off the d-rings or lost the floor.

When by myself, or with small group I carry a 3000lb come-a-long. Not very useful for a kayak, weighs about 10lbs, easy to use, and wicked strong, and releasable. Never used it on the river, but I am sure I could unpin my boat, as well as flip it over by myself... Got the idea from snout rigs, they are the people that need ridiculous amount of MA!
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Old 04-29-2009   #26
 
Golden, Colorado
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I'm just curious if anyone here knows of a situation where a Z-drag was needed to successfully rescue a swimmer/pinned person? Speed is so important in such situations and Z-drags are generally slow and cumbersome to set up. Usually there is something much simpler, much faster that can and should be deployed to get the swimmer to safety. The Z-drag is usually the last resort. I've only ever used Z-drags for pinned boats (especially rafts), and when its just a gear rescue, there's usually no need to rush and definitely no need to trash my gear.
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Old 04-29-2009   #27
 
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I carry a pin kit with a couple of pulleys, biners, prusiks, and webbing. I know how to set up basic mechanical advantage systems, but I have never actually had to use it. I have always been under the impression that a pin kit would be used to save a boat, not a person. The reason for this is it seems highly unlikely that anybody would have time to actually set up a Z-drag if someone were pinned underwater. I mean you would have to be very close to the person when it happened, get to shore, get out of your boat, get the pin kit out, find a suitable big rock or tree at the correct angle from the boater, set up your z drag. somehow get a rope out to the boat, and then get back to shore to pull. I know it is not impossible, just seems like one in a million.

I am sure there are special cases where someone is pinned, but their head is above water, where it could work.

Has anybody actually saved a life with a Z-drag? I would like to hear.
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Old 04-29-2009   #28
 
Cisco, Utah
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Z-Drag would mostly be used for equipment. To use that much force on a person would be, well, damaging. Even to a body recovery. If you need to take the time to set up a Z-drag you may well be looking at a body recovery at that point. I do know of cases where a raft got wrapped with a person in between. No way to set up the system in time to save the person. Entrapments would fall under a whole other topic. As for pin kits, can be applied in a million ways depending on situation, but most use would be for pinned boats.
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