Originally Posted by jeffsssmith
My style of river running comes from years of experience on permitted and unpermitted rivers but mostly unpermitted rivers where no one ever knows of our passage since we are stewards of the rivers and canyons without having any management. As a kayaker that self supports the rivers that are too hard for rafters to run I have seen places that are still truly wild and not in need of the type of management that Westwater and other popular rafting rivers have.
The real irony here restrac is that I was playing devil'advocate and you got trolled. I understand the need for permits and management on Westwater and other popular rivers and appreciate the work of the land managers to protect the resource and preserve the river experience. I think you may be taking yourself too seriously and have missed the message.
I didn't miss the message. I have worked long and hard to reduce the need for government oversight over the last decade. I have heard the philosophical perspective for ages now in relation to rafting and canyoneering. Its nothing new. The groups I have donated to and worked to create (often ending in failure due to competing views within the community) ultimately seek to increase access. While working for them it becomes obvious how just a few selfish actions can easily outweigh the concerted effort of many to be productive (just look to the sudden closure of Deer Creek in the Grand). As for serious.....not about myself but about my ideas (don't appreciate the ad hominem attack, always best to critique the ideas not the person). Just as you serious after decades of kayaking relatively untouched rivers. I also understand the others just choose to float within permitted rivers without a care in the world as they have the skills to go undetected.
As far as getting trolled....thats not an insult to me. Trolling is a derogatory term for those doing the action. I may have fed it but I did so in a sincere manner that stuck to my values. Too often flippant comments go by in these forums without others standing up to show the moderate side. I believe that we need folks to voice dissent against selfish acts as it shows we can self regulate as a community (not just individuals). Self regulation = cooperation which reduces the need for agencies to enforce compliance in the long run.
And maybe that is the difference for me.....poaching is a short run, personal benefit that increases the likelihood of compliance based regulations.
I fully accept and appreciate passionate disagreement. I have stated several times that my opinion and interpretation has no authority to stop someone from poaching.
I have been to the wild places you have mentioned, though only on foot. Stewardship comes in many forms. Voicing a preference to have more of those places is actually consistent with my own worldview. As far as experience and justification for our ideas....I have only really been rafting for a little more than a decade. I have seen more places increase restrictions in that time. I value personal stewardship but ultimately you are comparatively rare in the scheme of things. Just look to Ruby Horsethief to see how a run was abused by multiple stakeholders.
Best of luck achieving what you want. I just have never seen any benefit to support poachers.