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Old 01-07-2010   #21
cadster's Avatar
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 614
If we get a law saying historical commercial use is a right that still leaves private boating in limbo.

Do commercials have a greater right to access? Thatís an issue thatís been argued over forever on publicly managed rivers and lots of private boaters think they are being treated unfairly.

What if commercial use starts to limit private boaters access? There are boaters that feel strongly that commercial use on the Ark needs to be reduced. Would this bill stop any hope of that happening?

Will private boaters have to start showing economic benefits to guarantee access? I guess thatís been done for play parks.

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Old 01-07-2010   #22
nathanfey's Avatar
, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post

Thanks for posting the link to the synopsis. Reading the AW write up it seems like it only applies to commercial outfitters.

Does the bill have any provisions to help protect private boaters?


That's correct Andy,
Earlier conceptual versions of the navigability bill included more protections for all paddlers by specifically designating a list of river reaches as Navigable under law. The bill became so complex that lawmakers felt it would not pass, and therefore didn't want to carry to committee.
I know the Outfitters would like sweeping reforms to state navigability, but for the purposes of protecting their operations this year, this bill targets only the rights of guides to operate on historically permitted rivers.

There are specific references in the bill to English Common Law and the State's adoption of the Rights of Navigability that may help private boaters in the future, but this bill DOES NOT intend to resolve private rights.
There is concern over this bill that by explicitly allowing commercial outfitters to float and have incidental contact with private lands, that it implies private paddlers are not afforded the same rights...

We're spending a lot of time on this, and working with CROA reps to craft something that we can support, or at least be neutral on.
The bill is scheduled to be introduced to the legislature on the 18th.
Stay tuned.

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Old 01-07-2010   #23
slavetotheflyrod's Avatar
Littleton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 98
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From what I read this will have little impact on private boating, and for that matter does little more than confirm the current status quo.

I, for one was hoping for more
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Old 01-07-2010   #24
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
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Originally Posted by slavetotheflyrod View Post
From what I read this will have little impact on private boating, and for that matter does little more than confirm the current status quo.

I, for one was hoping for more
While I would like to see a more expansive bill that helps private boaters more explicitly, I do see a significant benefit in that by maintaining access to same reaches commercial outfitters run, landowners will not be able to close off sections of river.

My impression is that at least we don't LOSE access (unless landowners put up a gate they only open for the commercial outfitters) even though we still are subject to trespassing charges for accidentally touching the riverbed or crawling ashore after a swim. The references to English Common Law are good as groundwork for future improvement, but private boaters currently don't have a right to have incidental contact with private lands so we can't lose something we don't have. So the bill at least maintains the status quo in practical terms.

Is this correct Nathan?

Thanks for the work AW has put into this,

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 01-07-2010   #25
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Phuoc My, Da Nang, THE 'NAM
Paddling Since: 1845
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,988
Originally Posted by Chief Niwot View Post
He did not shoot at my buddy, but shakily pointed his gun at them and told them to get off his property. My buddy and friends were very nervous as he pointed the gun at them. They got in their boats ASAP and moved on and filed a police report after. This guy is not mentally right, be careful.
The original shooter was Mr Gandy, who fired at some folks floating the Lodgepole to Tod's Slot section, he was given a warning, lots of probation, and he wasnt allowed to own a gun for five years (HA).

its my understanding the cranky old gentleman at the bottom of initiation owned and operated the whitewater resort; it is also my understanding the resort is now closed and is up for sale, and i heard he wasnt doing so well in the health department. i know the resort staff has usually been pretty amicable towards the commercial companies, we evaced a guide with a broken knee a few years back through the resort itself. but i know theyre not too keen on the private boaters, so be heads up.

i dont think this is too much of an issue here. any of the sections that are private in the canyon are really not very worth while, but other than the very top section, everything else is still runnable and as long as you mind your manners (stay in your boat and dont touch anything) we should all be able to continue running these.
"Don't f$&@ing eddy out, just run it! Whaddya doin??" -LMyers
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Old 01-08-2010   #26
Gunnison, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by yetigonecrazy View Post
its the only drop on the entire taylor that i will walk.
haha....yeah......about that.....anyways, the upper upper section is okay at high water. I'm talking from Lotus staircase down to Todd's. Last time I did it, there were no major obstacles, including bridges in that section. The only thing was a big friggin nasty tree across the whole river that you either had to go over (super sketch) or trespass. I heard the owners weren't too stoked on trespassing, but...I met them one time. They were waiting for us at the tree. I popped out of my boat, put it on my shoulder, smiled at them and said, "Hi! how are you folks doing today?" Before they could reply, I was around the tree getting back into my boat and there were no cops at the take out. It's amazing what a friendly smile can do. but yeah, I agree with everyone, texas sucks and keep your stupid money and I'm still going to boat it and do some cartwheels in your oh so precious fishing spot and when you come rafting I will smile at you and act like you're my best friend because it's my job.
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Old 01-11-2010   #27
Corrales, New Mexico
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 46
I was checking out the developer's web site advertising this property - looks like he's trying to create the anti-Salida.........
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Old 01-11-2010   #28
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 87
SB, what is his web site?

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Old 01-11-2010   #29
Gunnison, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by riverrat View Post
texas sucks and keep your stupid money and I'm still going to boat it and do some cartwheels in your oh so precious fishing spot
Given, this Shaw guy is an egotistical asshole of a money whore as with other big timing schmucks that own land along the Taylor, and trying to take away our privileges to paddling is complete bullshit, BUT there shouldn't be any unnecessary disrespect shown that can aid in contradicting our rights as paddlers. Let AW and Kathleen Curry handle these issues in the courtroom and in the meantime on the homefront show a greater character and respect to others on the water. I've paddled the Taylor more than any other river in Colorado and racked almost 30 runs on it this past season, so seeing access rights jeopardized is extremely worrisome to me, but there are many others that enjoy this river other than paddlers so we need to learn to coexist for the benefit of all.

the website for the ranch is Wilder on the Taylor
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Old 01-28-2010   #30
Gunnison, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 31
[QUOTE=cadster;169657]"As far as what stretch is being closed, I thought all the commercial traffic is from below Toddís Slot to South Bank."

Most commercial traffic puts in below Todd's Slot, I have however guided the section between Clear Cut and Todd's Slot commercially. The Lotus Creak down section has occasionally been run commercially.

The major section in question is the Middle Taylor from South Bank to the Five Mile Bridge. This section flows through private property except for the last 200 yards. Shaw's property is the Wilder On The Taylor, at the lower section of the Middle.

The big issue that I see about the right to float is that failure to pass this bill could cause a domino effect. The Taylor and Gunnison (both local rivers for me) are dotted with private sections on all standard runs. I would hate to see land owners start to close off large chunks of the river.

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