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Old 07-08-2009   #71
 
Erie, Colorado
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To me it sounds like you are suggesting the equivalent of saying that 100% of the trash on the side of the road is the responsibility of motorcyclests. While it might be a small part of the problem due to a few small bad apples I think it is unfair to target that population.
Thanks for the reply Matt. I need to clarify, when you say the "railroad bridge", are you referring to the train trestle bridge that crosses the Arkansas below #6 or the bridge at the top of County road 371? I met the owner at the latter. It was at this location where he had pointed out three fallen tree -well stumps actually. It was sort of hard for me to believe hikers or fisherman would have had anything to do with this property damage. Sure, one can only spectulate which group or individual was involved, but again, put yourself in the owner's shoes. Wouldn't it be easier to stop all apples? Would you agree? And sorry, I didn't say anything about shutting down the road. I'm sure there is a roadway easement there somewhere. The 25 mile an hour comment posted earlier was spot on though...

Andy,

You're a smart guy. If I had the authority, I would give you a use permit for this stretch of the river. You make a lot of sense. However, it's human nature to remember the bad things first. This man had fences and signs removed, trees chopped down, and many more gross violations recently. My understanding is that he owns the land for 100 yards above the bridge and the land for 100 yards below the bridge. In my book that a huge chunk of liability to have trashed by the few disrespectful. Sorry, I cannot blame him for his actions. I will float on by...

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BUT, my understanding is that if someone trespasses and gets hurt while trespassing, they have the right to sue the land owner. This is scary and rediculous. If I am trespassing and I get hurt, it would never occur to me to sue the land owner, but this is America, the frivilous lawsuit capitol of the world.
Spot on Jennifer! I'm not so sure about your second law though. A person/ group would have to use the land continuously in an open and notoriuos manner over a period of time-essentially treat the property as their own to gain possesion of said land.

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Your analogy with hunting is intriguing but the difference is that its a matter of safety with whitewater boating.
Who's safety, the landowner's or your's? You have options. What are his if you decide to sue him for something stupid you caused while on his property? Just playing the Devil's advocate...
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Old 07-08-2009   #72
 
Erie, Colorado
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Iraq,

That was not an attack on you personally. But, can you imagine if some moran went onto this guy's property and had a tree fall on his head? He sues the owner for...well "whatever". The whole event stems from the moran wanting better whitewater boating photographs.

Sadly, this garbage happens!
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Old 07-08-2009   #73
 
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I think Jen is wrong on the law suit stuff. Canada will have to jump in. It's my impression that an individual has to be invited onto the property and then hurt to be held responsible. That said, you can try and sue for anything. Boaters don't sue, we boat.

The big item is malicious intent. When someone places objects in a river with the direct intention of harming individuals. Pretty hard to prove.

I really don't think the stuff of a tree falling on someone happens or similar. Most legal matters occur when someone obstructs a river and a boater passes around it. Lots of different events of this kind of stuff.

Now Huckleberry, you don't strike me as a boater. If you have a beef with the community, you're out gunned on this site. Get to know us before you assume anything.
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Old 07-09-2009   #74
 
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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
Thanks for the reply Matt. I need to clarify, when you say the "railroad bridge", are you referring to the train trestle bridge that crosses the Arkansas below #6 or the bridge at the top of County road 371? I met the owner at the latter. It was at this location where he had pointed out three fallen tree -well stumps actually. It was sort of hard for me to believe hikers or fisherman would have had anything to do with this property damage. Sure, one can only spectulate which group or individual was involved, but again, put yourself in the owner's shoes. Wouldn't it be easier to stop all apples? Would you agree? And sorry, I didn't say anything about shutting down the road. I'm sure there is a roadway easement there somewhere. The 25 mile an hour comment posted earlier was spot on though...
Huckleberry,

I was referring to the trestle bridge, but the one above 5 would make more sense in this converstation wouldn't it? My bad.

I would have to say that over all you're kinda preaching to the choir here. Reading this entire post I would say that 90% of the people on here, including me, support your friends legal rights. All the things you already listed are illegal, I would think enforcing the existing laws would satisfy your friends issues. Would you agree? I would support that even though I may be caught red handed on the speeding through portions of that section (might teach me a lesson).

It would not be easier to stop "all apples" simply because of the traffic that has the legal right to be on the river. As I said before, if you could you would destroy the local economy.

While I share your disbelieve that hikers or fisherman would be responsible for the damage, again I ask you: What makes you or your friend believe that the community on this web site or the larger boating community as a whole has anything to do with the trash or property damage that is going on?

Looking at it from our perspective, we have lost a very valuable ability that historically we have taken for granted. That being said I can understand the grumbling from the community but I'm glad that over all they have been supportive. Aren't you?

Matt
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Old 07-09-2009   #75
 
Erie, Colorado
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Now Huckleberry, you don't strike me as a boater. If you have a beef with the community, you're out gunned on this site. Get to know us before you assume anything.
Hmmm... good advice. What do you know about me , exactly? And yes, you are right. I do have a beef with the community. I have seen first hand the disrespect, and I'm doing my very best to curb it. There are always two sides to a story. I do my best to expose both sides. What's so terrible about that?

A good friend of mine has an 880 acre track of farmland near Lafeyette, Colorado. Four teenage boys Google Earthed the land and noticed the four acre lake smack dab in the center (unseeable from the ground or anywhere near the property's border-a great bass lake by the way). They decided to take thier jet skis to said lake despite the fence and the numerous "no trespassing" signs around the property's boundry. One of the idiots decided to run his jet ski under a low laying branch of an old cottonwood tree. The idea, he was going to jump the branch while the craft was moving and land on it once it emerged from the other side. Long story short, he broke both his legs and is suing the property owner for this stupidity. I 'll let you know how the pending suit turns out....

Don't tell me this garbage doesn't happen. There's always some dumbass that screws everything up for all of us.

And for the record, you are right. I haven't boated for a number of years. I do, however, chase my daughter, my sister, and my brother nearly every weekend. I support them in their endeavors. I love my state and I wish people would learn to take care of it.

I spent several hours with a man this last weekend. Yeah, it was an eye opener...I guarantee his beef is bigger than mine.
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Old 07-09-2009   #76
 
Erie, Colorado
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Looking at it from our perspective, we have lost a very valuable ability that historically we have taken for granted. That being said I can understand the grumbling from the community but I'm glad that over all they have been supportive. Aren't you?
Absolutely!
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Old 07-09-2009   #77
 
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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
I do have a beef with the community. I have seen first hand the disrespect, and I'm doing my very best to curb it.
Please help us understand by detailing what you have directly seen happen, or have proof of something that happened by private kayakers, rafters, etc.


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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
A good friend of mine has an 880 acre track of farmland near Lafeyette, Colorado. Four teenage boys Google Earthed the land and noticed the four acre lake smack dab in the center (unseeable from the ground or anywhere near the property's border-a great bass lake by the way). They decided to take thier jet skis to said lake despite the fence and the numerous "no trespassing" signs around the property's boundry. One of the idiots decided to run his jet ski under a low laying branch of an old cottonwood tree. The idea, he was going to jump the branch while the craft was moving and land on it once it emerged from the other side. Long story short, he broke both his legs and is suing the property owner for this stupidity. I 'll let you know how the pending suit turns out....
Completely dumb should be thrown out and I think the community will support you in this. Over all we have no love for people like this.

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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
Don't tell me this garbage doesn't happen. There's always some dumbass that screws everything up for all of us.
You said it yourself, there will ALWAYS be some dumbass that screws things up, go after THEM, not an entire community.
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Old 07-09-2009   #78
 
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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
Absolutely!
Ok, so I'm completely confused. What is your beef with this community as a whole?
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Old 07-09-2009   #79
 
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Please help us understand by detailing what you have directly seen happen, or have proof of something that happened by private kayakers, rafters, etc.
Matt,

This past weekend while waiting to get this photograph:
http://www.camospace.com/file/pic/gallery/248854.jpg (that's my daughter right next to the captain-top right). I watched four kayakers remove their boats from the river. They obviously parked at the bridge and ferried another vehicle upriver. When they began stowing their gear, one of the boaters opened his car door and a bunch of trash fell out. They then popped beers while they were in the process of removing their wet suits. One lady grabbed a roll of TP and marched off under the bridge. When they left, their trash didn't go with them and a beer can rolled from the top of the car and onto the ground. They simply drove away. I was bagging their trash when I was greeted by the owner.

Keep in mind, I have travel to this location since I was a wee lad. I have watched this area develop over the years. Small sections of the road where people once parked single vehicles are now large parking lots for multi vehicles. Moreover, these areas are becoming larger-a gross invasion from the road easements onto private property. The vehicles belong to rafters and kayakers-apparent by the roof racks and trailers. Seems they feel they have the right to park wherever in pursuit of their interest. Such disrespect comes at the expense of the land owner. That a look at past aerial photographs of the region if you do not believe me.

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You said it yourself, there will ALWAYS be some dumbass that screws things up, go after THEM, not an entire community.
Easier said than done...

I am a sportsman within a community of sportsman (kayakers included) My first love is hunting. What has been given to us is not a "right" but rather a "priviledge"-something that can be voted away. Have you noticed all the gates going up into BLM and National Forest lands? These two entities are becoming feed up with bad apples as well. I love riding my AtVs on designated trails. It's becoming harder and harder these days to even do that...Why? I will tell you. 10% of the communtiy doesn't give a rat's arse. They break the rules and all of us pay the price. I know from what I reading that I'm singing to the choir. What I do not understand, if it is so near and dear to us, then why is this stuff still happening? Why is it the landowner's responsibility to go after the "them"? Isn't it our job to police ourselves? Maybe, just maybe, if we do so at every level and within every aspect of the sportsman's community, then the gates will start dropping. Just saying....
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Old 07-09-2009   #80
 
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Sean - I remember as a child (not in this state), some childeren were trespassing to access a neighbor's pool when the neighbor was not around. One drowned and the property owner lost a big lawsuit. Everyone in my neighborhood was draining their pools, demolishing their pools, or constructing super tall (unclimbable) gates with beefy locks so people couldn't get to their pools. If in this state one has to be invited on the property to be held responsible, like you said, it still stands that the property owner would try to minimize his chance of being sued by trying to keep folks off his land, because even an unsuccessful lawsuit can be costly and inconvenient. Once again, I don't like it, I'm just trying to see it from their perspective.

2 other thoughts - has anyone seen the plat map for this property? Some of the private land along the Ark has a small strip of BLM land along the river's edge. I own land on Fractions and this is the case with my land, and the adjacent neighbor's. If this is the case with this guy, then boaters can walk up and down the river's edge, but obviously not through his land to get to the river. Or he may own right up to the river??? Won't know without seing a plat map or asking him.

Also, I get the feeling this guy isn't a total ass, and if the boating community really respects his wishes and rights as a property owner, he is a lot more likely to be kind and helpful in the case that someone does get hurt on the river or needs access across his land in the case of an emergency. I've known instances when a land owner with NO TRESPASSING signs helped out a swimmer who lost his boat, and even gave him a ride back to his car. Anyhow, since we can't do anything about the no trespassing issue, lets just be nice and respectful to the guy, and he's less likely to come running after us with a gun if our boat bumps into a rock on his land like on so many other stretches of river with crazy land owners.
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