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Old 06-22-2009   #61
 
Buena Vista, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Elephant rock View Post
Heads up to all boaters who think that a little eco-terrorrism will change the way things are becoming on river access.The people who live in these homes are well heeled,have lawyers and some would like to close down the road to the public.Speed limit is 25 but hardly obeyed,cut fences and ripped up signs only add to the problem,gives all boaters a bad name.Remember to pay your bucks to the Upper Ark when you boat so that sites like Railroad Bridge can exsit or wake up one day to find that the upper Ark is now like the Taylor river below the res.
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Old 07-08-2009   #62
 
Erie, Colorado
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I am new to all this and I'm trying to understand. If I step from my boat and set foot on private property, and while I'm doing so, I break my leg, can I sue the owner of said property? Seems to me, if I were the owner of that property, I would be a little concerned about losing the proverbial farm-especially if I were the owner well before boating became so popular. If I were the owner, I would also be concerned with the piles of trash/beer bottles/broken glass, etc, etc constantly being left on the property by so called "respectful sportsmen"-not to mention the enormous amounts of human feces being deposited behind every boulder. Talk about your safety issues! Just curious, how many of you would enjoy people dumping trash and pooping in your yard? Cut down the fences, you say? Destroy the signs? Worse yet, call the owner a Douche Bag? Amazing......

Does anyone know about the three trees which were cut down there? I heard it was done by one of the commercial operations so they could get better photos of rafters passing by. If I were the owner, I'd be pissed!

I would even be willing to bet the owner loves being on the water, but cannot tolerate disrespectful people anymore.
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Old 07-08-2009   #63
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
I am new to all this and I'm trying to understand. If I step from my boat and set foot on private property, and while I'm doing so, I break my leg, can I sue the owner of said property? Seems to me, if I were the owner of that property, I would be a little concerned about losing the proverbial farm-especially if I were the owner well before boating became so popular. If I were the owner, I would also be concerned with the piles of trash/beer bottles/broken glass, etc, etc constantly being left on the property by so called "respectful sportsmen"-not to mention the enormous amounts of human feces being deposited behind every boulder. Talk about your safety issues! Just curious, how many of you would enjoy people dumping trash and pooping in your yard? Cut down the fences, you say? Destroy the signs? Worse yet, call the owner a Douche Bag? Amazing......

Does anyone know about the three trees which were cut down there? I heard it was done by one of the commercial operations so they could get better photos of rafters passing by. If I were the owner, I'd be pissed!

I would even be willing to bet the owner loves being on the water, but cannot tolerate disrespectful people anymore.
I have never seen "trash/beer bottles/broken glass, etc" or any poop around this stretch of river... As you said, you are new, help US understand where you are having this experience and where you are coming from.

Thanks,

Matt
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Old 07-08-2009   #64
 
Erie, Colorado
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Bad,

Seriously, just pass by the parking lot to the left of the bridge, on the east side of the river, any Monday. Take a walk from the bridge upward...check behind the boulders, if you darn.

When I come across situations like this, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes. For example, "How would I feel if people were disrespectful of my property".

I actaully met the owner this last weekend and was given a tour. I assured him, not all of us are "like that". Sadly, he replied, "I understand, but it only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel". It is additionally sad that we call this guy a "Douche Bag" (I actually found him to be quite pleasant and a real down to earth guy) for protecting what is rightfully his. If he were to read this forum, what would he think? Put yourself in his shoes and answer my question.

I teach hunter education courses. Within the hunting side of things, if you trespass, you can potentially lose your hunting priviledges for a period of five years to life. It is the hunter's responsibility to know exactly where they are at all times. They're/we're sportsman. Why should it be any different for those using our waterways?

I look forward to your reply.
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Old 07-08-2009   #65
 
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Thank you for the response. From the railroad bridge? What makes you deduce that the said mess is from kayakers with all the campers, hikers, fisherman, gold prospectors etc up there? Maybe it is just because I am aware and responsible but I don't see kayakers as the issue here. Just as an example, glass around the water is a HUGE no no with everyone I know, especially beer bottles which compounds the unlikeliness of this being kayakers responsibility.

To me it sounds like you are suggesting the equivalent of saying that 100% of the trash on the side of the road is the responsibility of motorcyclests. While it might be a small part of the problem due to a few small bad apples I think it is unfair to target that population.

You mentioned trying to shut the road down... What is that going to do? People will go around and there might be a small reduction in overall traffic, you CAN NOT shut down the river. Even if it where legally possible to shut the river down, if you did you would shut down a huge part of the local economy. I don't think it would be pleasant around town after that for the people responsible...

Matt
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Old 07-08-2009   #66
 
West By God, Wyoming
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Your analogy with hunting is intriguing but the difference is that its a matter of safety with whitewater boating.
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Old 07-08-2009   #67
 
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Huckleberry,

Please consider that you're reading remarks from contributors among a fairly large group of people. In any large group there will be a range of voices you'll hear if you ask a question, not all will be reasoned. If you examine the record above and you'll see that while a couple of folks were unfriendly toward the property owners, these voices were quickly overshadowed by a more mature stance of the many others who want to create a dialog and work with the landowners, and to make sure that conflict was avoided. Initial erroneous reports were clarified and the real situation was made public knowledge to help fellow boaters avoid conflict with the landowners.

One of the issues that contributes to conflicts between landowners and boaters is that Colorado has some very unusual property rights issues in riparian corridors compared to the rest of the country. In most other states, and in the common law our legal system is based on, fishing and travel easements often exist below the high water line, whereas in Colorado, a boater can considered a trespasser for simply making contact with the riverbed.

Imagine if you were accustomed to a laws that allows access across private property such as the established footpaths in England, and then came to a land where an a centuries-old and unquestioned right was denied to you. Even with this unusual system in Colorado, boaters are working to educate ourselves and adapt and work with riverside landowners to the unconventional property rights situation here to avoid conflicts.

As for the issue of litter and feces, my experience has been that boaters are among the more environmentally-conscious of any group of outdoor recreationists. Many boaters practice "Leave-no-Trace" camping ethics, using firepans and a tarp under the kitchen area to contain "microtrash" that attracts ants and rodents, and packing out trash, feces, and ashes. If you've ever been on a river trip stopping at a campsites that can be reached only by boat, you'll see what I mean. Generally the campsites that can be driven to are trashed out while the ones that can be reached only by the river are very clean. Its rare to find more than a gum wrapper or small piece of trash, if anything, at sites that are used by boaters only. As an example in your neighborhood, I suggest you float Brown's Canyon and check out campsites on river L about a mile below Ruby Mountain. Then compare these with some of the roadside campsites you've seen.

There are "bad apples" in every bunch, however in terms of environmental stewardship boaters tend to surpass most otheruser groups.

I hope this helps clear up some of the misunderstandings you've had.

Thanks,

-Andy
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Old 07-08-2009   #68
 
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Right on Andy, I don't think I have seen you in over a year. Where have you been hiding man?

Matt R.
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Old 07-08-2009   #69
 
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Buena Vista, Colorado
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Originally Posted by iamyourhuckleberry View Post
-not to mention the enormous amounts of human feces being deposited behind every boulder. Talk about your safety issues! Just curious, how many of you would enjoy people dumping trash and pooping in your yard? Cut down the fences, you say?
I've never pooped behind a rock on the Arkansas or seen anyone, and I am out there pretty often, was this nasty attitude created from just one bad experience? Did you try and camp at Elephant Rock or Fat Texan July 4th weekend? Most of the people who litter are tourists/partyers/and unfortunately fishermen...

oh and by the way Casper Mike was the one who made the comment about cutting the fence and he lives in Wyoming...a long way from #5.
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Old 07-08-2009   #70
 
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Sorry if this is redundant or misinformed, but I didn't read all 5 pages of comments, and I am not a lawyer by any means. I really wish the property owner would allow us to scout or portage for safety reasons. I think 99.99% of boaters would be quick and respectful of his property.

BUT, my understanding is that if someone trespasses and gets hurt while trespassing, they have the right to sue the land owner. This is scary and rediculous. If I am trespassing and I get hurt, it would never occur to me to sue the land owner, but this is America, the frivilous lawsuit capitol of the world.

Also, if a property owner decides to allow people to access their land, and for any reason in the future he/she or even the future owners of the property wants to end that access, they CAN'T because it has become a puplic right-of-way. You don't get to use that land, change that land, pay less property tax on that land, and it my devalue your resale value. Esssentially, it no longer is your land.

With these 2 stupid laws on the books, I understand where the land owners are comming from. Don't like it one bit, but I understand.
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