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Old 04-30-2009   #81
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Summit, Colorado
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Originally Posted by El Flaco View Post
Unfamiliar run + no guide + remote + no egress + rescue more that 2 hours away = prepare for the worst. I don't care if Jesus himself appears and he swears it's flatwater.
It's all class III when you can walk on water, right?

"The world would be a better place if everyone kayaked."-Brad Ludden (Valhalla)
"You only get one chance to run a drop blind."-DD
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Old 05-01-2009   #82
Dipshit with the most.
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You weren't boating with yakgirl were you?

Originally Posted by raftus View Post
WWSR excerpts:
class at 450 cfs: III (IV)
Character: scrape less
Remoteness: One way out, and it requires a boat
"Narrows is set over 1000 feet deep in a slot canyon of epic proportions.."
"...and an overnight run is highly recommended to prolong the experience in this committing environment."
"At lower flows (400-700 on the NF gauge) the top three miles will be horribly shallow and will contain a few likely portages for wood." "..the flow does not increase until .... six miles in."
"many will curse the authors continually, since at any normal flow the top of the run is going to suck."
"there isn't any chance for escape..."
"There are a few significant class III rapids and one that I remember in particular just below Kolob Creek where a dangerous log must be avoided."
haven't read the guide or seen the run, but this would be sufficient to tell me to bring the A-game.

Originally Posted by doublet View Post
This thread started out containing some good beta and some baseless insults. In classic form it slowly devolved to just being funny as hell. Cliff notes:

-CEMartin has an epic and blames the guidebook

-Several well-meaning posters offer euphemistic posts saying "glad you're okay but you might reconsider your position on this matter.

-Posts gradually grow more critical of CEMartin

-Caspermike gets (nicely) called out twice, loses his shit and gets defensive (a key component of any epic buzz thread)

-CEMartin says "fuck you" to the haters

-Lotsawater talks about Leif's mom and spits endless sarcasm (also a key component to every epic buzz thread)

-Several well meaning boaters offer valuable insight that is lost amongst the (increasingly hilarious) noise.
Thanks for the review.

Originally Posted by caspermike View Post
yes, mr beav, i am your father... pishhh,shh,pishhh,shh,pishh,shhh

i wasn't trying to be dick supreme but come on. sack up and take some personal responsibility. as somebody else said they used their common sense and didn't run the narrows for lack of time. common sense goooes a looongg wayyy. as does being preparred. i admit i have been unpreparred in the past and deffentely had to deal with the situation best i could which isn't according to the original plan.. sooo the word ill end with is lets be safe. don't be an idiot and run a stepping stone without seriously thinking it completely over. say what happens if someones swims in a place like that. you need a game plan and you all need to be ready for whatever goes down. lets be safe. im going to listen to leif now and shut up.
Incredibly twice in a week or so I agree with caspermike. Holy shitfire Batman.

Seriously ce, you do need to take a little longer look at what you did. ANYONE who boats something and then blames a guide book author for their shit sandwich is way off base. That is like blaming a recipe book for your lousy cooking.


Well you get the idea. I, too, have created my own cluster fucks and managed to get out of them ok. I did not blame Grant Amaral for them.

I know my ability leval and I am actually pretty sucky at kayaking. I read water well, I make great moves in my raft, but in my kayak I fall over way too easily and end up banging my head on shit that is a lot harder than my head. I do love to surf though, so I keep trying to get out there, but the facts are in.

You sound a lot like me and my kayaking.

Not finding your lighter 'til the next day??? Were there scooby snacks involved or something harder??? I just don't get that at all.

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Old 05-01-2009   #83
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Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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Not finding your lighter 'til the next day???
yeah, that one had me scratching my head about how he didn't know it was in his PFD while shivering throughout a long, cold night. Maybe his brain was addled by the cold after the swim? I always make sure there are a few lighters squirreled away in various places among my gear, including my PFD pocket, just in case an outing turns into an adventure.
Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 05-01-2009   #84
Kooterville, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Deseret News | Narrows in Zion National Park reopening

ZION NATIONAL PARK — The Narrows area at Zion National Park is reopening.
The Zion Narrows were closed after several groups had difficulties in the canyon, which is remote and can have high water.
Last weekend, four of five groups that tried to kayak through the Narrows had problems and had to spend the night. Two groups required rescue. The incidents prompted the National Park Service to temporarily close the area.
It was scheduled to reopen Friday but the park says the Narrows will be closed for the season if other groups encounter significant difficulties.
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Old 05-01-2009   #85
no tengo
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There you have it. Don't F up. I mean - how would you like to be the person responsible for getting it closed for the season? you think cemartin had it bad...
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Old 05-02-2009   #86
Telluride, Colorado
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Unless the flow climbs back up, you're looking at a seriously long day now.
I was going to be vague but then I decided to do this other thing.
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Old 05-03-2009   #87
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Best thread that I've seen in a long time.
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Old 05-03-2009   #88
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by El Flaco View Post
For those who are still serious enough to discuss the topic at hand, I thought I'd bring up he point of the "Rescue Insurance" as it pertains to what we all like to do. I was thinking about the Colorado SAR surcharge on hunting / fishing licenses, and I know that it doesn't cover as much as most of us CO boater would think. So I went looking for an insurance provider for the entire US, and I came across this posting from the Backpacker forums:
For those of us who choose to participate in expedition boating - and I would consider any run that has unportageable rapids in an isolated environment (be it vertical walls or distance-from-civilization) "expedition boating" - I think this should be something we should consider. Even if those rapids are supposedly Class II.
Backcountry insurance is something I have been greatly interested in after a rescue in Grand County, Utah last year. I own a SPOT and investigated the insurance that came with it to pay for the incident. Unfortunately, the system is at at the moment less than desirable. To be qualified for the insurance you have to have initiated the SAR through your SPOT device. While in some cases that is logical, in many its not especially in places like slot canyons. My SAR rescue was self initiated and was over much quicker b/c of it. A recent event in the Grand showed how the "blind" SPOT rescue was less than desirable for everyone involved.

Lesson: know you equipment and insurance's limitations as there is yet a one-size-fits-all solution. Until there is know that a rescue in certain areas of the country is spendy (mine was $5k plus and was frontcountry).

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Old 05-03-2009   #89
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LOL. thats funny funkins. great book!

Originally Posted by funkins View Post
Can I have your copy of WWOTSR?
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Old 05-03-2009   #90
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Cedar City, Utah
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Well, our little secret is out, so let's do a little review about the Narrows for those contemplating a trip there:

150 cfs is minimum flow required by Zion NP (North Fork Virgin River nr Springdale, UT streamgage). Up to 300 is low flow, above 600 is high flow. Argue high and low all you want. Daily fluctuations in May have been running 200 to 600.

It is a long day. The first 6 or so miles are pretty much a walk. There will be only rare years when this section is floatable in April or May. Bring solid footwear. An early start is paramount.

It is Class III in a Class V setting. Argue the ratings, it doesn't change the difficlty. Don't bring inexperienced boaters down here, they will only be a liability if something goes wrong. Quoting from one of last weekend's rescue kayakers "The most important thing... is the ever changing pickup stix logjams. There are blind drops where you just don't know, and I've had a few moments in there when there it was, out of nowhere, perfectly at larynx height, these ponderosa war clubs spiked with shattered limbs."

Your party should be capable of self rescue, or waiting 3 days for help. It may take longer if flow and weather conditions are wrong. That means having something along other than board shorts and a dry top (what the 2 lads who climbed out and needed heli-rescue were reported to be wearing when picked up. Having an IK along allows a boater with a lost or broken boat to get out. Split boats, lost boats, trashed spray skirt, blown out shoulder... etc are only a few of the potential deal breakers. WR Grace Snow and Ice Shield (a bitumen-based roofing material, see your construction buds for a small piece of this). a roofing product, will actually stick to the outside of a plastic boat, seal a crack, and stay on for the rest of the season if need be. 4of 5 parties last weekend came through with cracked boats.

Of course, there will be those who think no one in their party will ever have a major equipment loss or be injured. Don't complain if you go unprepared....

Zion National Park is reviewing the details of last weekend's ordeal. If you seriously want to continue boating the Narrows, it would help to write a letter to: Superintendent, Zion National Park, Springdale, UT expressing your desire to continue to have this special resource be available.

Jim Howells
Virgin River Runners Coalition

In life, pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional.
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