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Old 04-29-2009   #31
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Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
canada you don't know me, how do i not have real life experiences, maybe you missed the boxelder epic with me and aaron, i shouldn't have to defend my exeriences. ihave my fare share of shit hit the fan but not like this. canada btw, we did give them a reason to say no more boating, and they said no more boating. lack of policing or lack of responsibility of being 100 percent preparred, which im calling out since i have made the same mistake.

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Old 04-29-2009   #32
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,094
Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Good: Coming forward and sharing the events of a highly publicized rescue in a sensitive national park. You learned some good lessons, and others might learn from your mistakes as well. Glad everyone is alive.

Bad: Being unprepared and making multiple avoidable mistakes that give the boating community a black eye in an amazing area with sensitive hard earned access.

Ugly: Calling the guidebook authors arrogant sandbaggers. Beyond lame. Your late arrival, lake of prep, lack of appropriate gear, and lack of ability to deal with the run is 100% your own fault. The guidebook authors are great guys who have done a huge service to the boating community by compiling the new testament. Their beta is right on. Thanks Kyle and Evan!!!

Yes, many of us have made some of the same mistakes, but few of us have made all of them on one trip in a place as committing as zion.

A side note for potentially unprepared boaters... Consider hiking the narrows in the fall as a recon mission prior to boating the narrows the following spring. Do your homework. A backpacking overnighter in zion was one of the most amazing outdoor experiences I have had. Be prepared!

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Old 04-29-2009   #33
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 831
Originally Posted by acetomato View Post
What was wrong with allowing camping? They have campsites there for that reason. I understand the flash flood danger but that danger is there throughout the whole summer. It's something they have allowed in the past. It would have changed this run considerably.
Maybe they did a risk assessment based on weather reports? The flash flood danger isn't constant. I'm sure they can gauge the risk based on forecasts of precipitation, ground saturation, and temperatures. Whatever, whether or not camping was allowed is moot. You still have to carry gear for an emergency bivouac when you are paddling a long run in a remote area.

The folks involved should have been more prepared for self-support. Some mental toughness would have helped too. Wimps. This is embarrassing for us all.
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Old 04-29-2009   #34
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 342
I think most people are missing my main points. Just to clarify... I own a copy of WWOSR, and I think it's a great collection of pictures and new ideas about whitewater runs. We're lucky to have this publication. That being said, it's more of a survey of each run than a guidebook, and I think it should be treated as such. It reminds me a little bit of 50 Greatest Paddles of North America. The problem is that it provides just enough information to be dangerous. You guys act like this book is your Bible for some rediculous religion that you can't question without going to hell. Get over it! The purpose of my post was to provide a first-hand account of my experiences, and advocate that more information should be provided to the general boating public since the secret is already out about the Narrows. My hope is that we'll have a more comprehensive set of information about this section from a reliable source like American Whitewater.

Also I heard the following through a private message regarding the WWOSR's evaluation of the Virgin River:
"I agree the authors of WWOTSR were arrogant. They apparently made one trip to the Virgin, raged for a couple of days, left and wrote a guide. They included the Quail Creek diversion as a line. It is a 30-footer without possibility of probing the landing. Apparently the guy who did it broke his paddle on landing and escaped with his life. They pulled out of the Virgin gorge at the rest area. The best paddling is below the rest area! 'Nough said about those guys.

I have been boating the Virgin for 30 years, wrote an online guide to the Virgin, and deliberately left the Narrows run out because of the difficulties involved, and to keep it our little local secret. I will have to include something now that the "secret" is out. We consider 200 low flow, 400 medium flow. I know of one party from Flag who ran it in 2005 at 900-1000 cfs. They had run the Triple Crown in Alaska, and said of the Narrows at that level that they had "all they could handle". Personally, I wouldn't even consider running at that level."
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Old 04-29-2009   #35
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
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CEMARTIN did you read the first opening of the new testement? i think from Aaron pruzan. pick your own line! no guide book is going to tell you to go left at gore and hit the middle of tunnel.
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Old 04-29-2009   #36
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Not a river guide, Ft. FunK
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 276
Virgin River class III Gnarrows.

I blame 'Outside' magazine...
Devils advocate
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Old 04-29-2009   #37
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 490
CasperMike, your replies regularly come across as uninformed and juvenile. I don't care how good of a boater you are, no one does, it's about respecting others like you want to be respected. You have good beta sometimes. Just tone it down a little and people will respect that more than an outburst.There's nothing wrong with the park telling people what they're getting into and some equipment that might come in handy. Obviously, people need to be reminded. A first aid kit with firestarter, extra clothes, headlamp, breakdown paddle, and just general evaluation of commitment and preparedness. Wouldn't you be a little nervous doing a long, hazardous, committing run for the first time with a 10:30 start?---------------------------------------------------------------Also, just a general statement regarding this debacle. It's not about the grade. You all remember the "Not so sunny at Sunshine" post a few years ago. Ironic that it's the same author now bitching about the grade again. Ditto with the underprepared group that went into the Black Canyon a few years ago and required rescue. It's not that an accident happened, because they will happen. It's about what you know how to do when it does happen, because it will eventually.
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Old 04-29-2009   #38
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 273

I can't agree with you more. Kyle and Evan are both huge dick heads, that need to be taught a lesson. I can't tell you how many times they've gotten me into trouble. SANDBAGGERS is a good description but I think duchebaggers, it is more fitting. I mean the only thing they know how to do is STOMP shit. I've never even seen Kyle brace let alone roll or swim, and Evan is probably the best boater in the state of Nebraska, when he's there.

The worst thing is that they are always cock blocking me with Lief's mom. I can't tell you how many times I've been working that girl by the river and then Kyle or Evan comes through a rapid with some sexy boof stroke, and she's sleeping on their paco pad instead of mine. Total bullshit.

I think that they had some very cocky teachers, in their defense. Kyle learned how to kayak from Front Range Fred. I don't know if you know Fred, but he is one of the biggest Sand Baggers of all time. He told me once that Pandoras Box was a play run so I showed up in my Wavesport Transformer. Needless to say I had a couple of swims.

And a guy by the name of Randy Ramirez is responsible for Evan's arrogant attitude. Randy is a lady killer. And when I say lady killer, I mean sheep ladies, he's humped thousands of them. That ease with the ladies can inflate the ego and that inflated ego can carry over into your boating very easily.

So really you should not be blaming Evan or Kyle for their arrogant sandbagging. You should blame your epic shit show, on Front Range Fred, and all those beautiful horny sheep in Wyoming. They are the real assholes here.

In all seriousness Cemaratin, are you fuqin' kidding me? The movie big labowski comes to mind...."Those fuckin' AMATEURS

maybe you should get into another sport, like knitting.
hey diddle diddle...
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Old 04-29-2009   #39
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Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
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from the book of god.... "accessing a gorge of this scale is usually relegated to those with class V abilities." in the first F*cking paragraph. schizzle why get mad you must be the duckier who got knocked out.

schizzle, "Wouldn't you be a little nervous doing a long, hazardouse, committing run for the first time with a 10:30 start?" umm first off. i would make sure i know my shit. second off id come preparred(know my shit) and third i wouldn't depend on a bilble to pick my lines. 4th if swimming is a question than i myself am very cautious about what i do.

page 2 third sentance. immediately under the warning message. "this book is intended as a reference tool for experienced paddlers. the terrain it describes can be or is extremely dangerous(zion narrows) and requires a high degree of ability and experience to negotiate. this book is not intended for inexperienced/ novice paddlers. nor is it intended as am instructional manual. if you are unsure of your ability to handle any circumstance that may arise, employ the services of a professional instructor or guide. ..... numerous hazards exist that are not described in this book. shall i continue?
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Old 04-29-2009   #40
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Boulder, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 983
I'm sorry but who wants a guidebook that tells you every single move? I think this run is about exploration (for most correct?) doesn't having a guidebook that explains every single drop take away from this? Maybe we should come out with a guidebook that has descriptions of precise boat entry angle+paddle strokes and maybe if you flip over a description of how to roll?
Sorry for my rant but to me a guidebook is meant to give you an idea of what a run is like (all that needs to be said about this run is woody low volume (first 6 miles practically a hike) extremely committing long ass day and then a description of how to get there).

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