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Old 10-02-2013   #111
portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3
is the Main Salmon at Corn Creek Shutdown?

What will happen if someone does launch anyone know?

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Old 10-02-2013   #112
Beaverton, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 569
Here is the video segment from the CBS crew at Lee's Ferry.

Way to go to Drew, Pete, Ceiba Adventures, Tom Martin and others.

Shutdown scuttles group's dream of Canyon float trip - WNEM TV 5

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Old 10-02-2013   #113
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 311
Anybody needing an alternative date for their trip suspended by Uncle Sam
I've got room on my January 15, 2014 launch. 25 days to Diamond. Just got off in September, January will be number nine.
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Old 10-02-2013   #114
Beaverton, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 569
NPR had an interview with Scott Lee as well:

Want To Raft Through The Grand Canyon? Not During The Shutdown : NPR
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Old 10-02-2013   #115
Steamboat Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 63
simple math 2 trips a day 16 people each at $100 per person, granted there are administrative costs but $3200 a day and that is just private only season. you would think they would figure out a way to pull there heads from their asses. as tax paying citizens do we not have the same right to be on that land as the NPS?
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Old 10-04-2013   #116
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25
I try to keep my post to a minimum, but this issue has me so worked up...
I do not think you can blame the NPS for the gov shut down but you can fault the Superintendent and Rangers for the decisions they have made. There comes a time in ones life or career when you might be forced into a situation which defines who you are. The problem with many in government jobs is they forget who it is they are working for.
I believe the Super should have ignored his bosses and either ordered his Rangers to disappear or continue to check people in. The injustice in the current situation is clear.
The reason people are blaming the Republicans is beacause a small majority of them are using the budget issue to re-fight an issue (public health care) that has been decided by the Nation but scares a small majority of extremist in tightly gerrymandered districts. (Usually in former conferderate states).
By the way the NPS has no plans to allow people to use permits that have expired during the shutdown. If you do not believe they could be so callus, just look at the previous decisions.
Plenty of pain to go around. Atleast I am not trying to feed kids with a paycheck that will not come.
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Old 10-04-2013   #117
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,931
Yeah, I wish the Supers at some these parks would generally take greater risks in supporting the various stakeholders and user groups. That said, can you imagine working your entire life for a career and being asked to risk it largely for a problem you had no say in?

The one caveat I disagree on is while they are civil servants they also have an obligation to protect the resource. And with the NPS that is actually an equal commitment for them as they are charged with a more aggressive preservation mandate, compared to the conservation minded BLM and USFS. If you have listened to NPR this week the language the NPS spokesperson in Washington highlights this difference. They have always been more restrictive with their resource laws and decisions.

Per the lack of options to offset the loss of launches for those affected by the Federal shutdown. Is there anything we can do to help them receive permits in the future. It seems like they should be given priority access in future lotteries either through specific dates (like they did for the old wait list participants) or through extra points for the weighted lottery entries. I don't know if Rich P is reading this thread still but I would love to know if they are doing anything or if there is a way we can influence that outcome???

I would be more than happy to decrease, in a very minor way, my probabilities in future lotteries if it mean these rafters get another chance to use the river.

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Old 10-04-2013   #118
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Orem, Utah
Paddling Since: 1969
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 207
Rig your boat on the old Navajo bridge, strap yourself in and then do a seal launch into the river.
I know, you wouldn't have been checked out by the ranger and so you would get fined etc.
I like Tom's idea of walking your gear down the old ferry road.
How about a helicopter sling moving your boat to the ferry. ( Just anchor offshore so that you aren't touching the sacred ramp). Then request a checkout.
Or a crane driving out on the bridge and lowering your boat to water level? Still illegal.
Sorry, that's all I got right now.
You had me at 'Hey, Row'
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Old 10-05-2013   #119
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,931
I can never sleep before a big outdoor trip so I have spent the last few hours researching government shutdowns. I stumbled across this resource:


Ignore the WaPo address as it is actually a congressional research report they reposted in 2011.

Some interesting and relevant issues popped up:

1) According to the Anti-Defeciency Act:
The act prohibits federal officials from obligating funds before an appropriations measure has been enacted, except as authorized by law. The act also prohibits acceptance of voluntary services and employment of personal services exceeding what has been authorized by law.10 Exceptions are made under the act to the latter prohibition for “emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.” Therefore, the Antideficiency Act generally prohibits agencies from continued operation in the absence of appropriations. Failure to comply with the act may result in criminal sanctions, fines, and removal.
  1. This might explain why superintendents cannot allocate some places as open during closures. There is obviously is discrepancy between agencies that is unaccounted for in this interpretation.
  2. Bolded by me. This explains why furloughed individuals are not allowed to work (??)
  3. Sets precedent for why LEs are still funded and provides their mission

2) A hearing was convened after the 1995/96 closures after reports of disorganization. It would appear that processes were more regimented after this point. It appears that annual reports and plans became more common (??) . Each agency is required to file a plan at the beginning of each fiscal year that sets in place specific measures in case of a funding gap.
  1. Might be worth investigating if this is why the GCNP was able to accept funds from outside sources in 1995 but informally claims to be unable to do so now.

Lots of good information in this source for folks wanting to educate themselves about a process that has become increasingly common since the mid-80s. I never personally realized how explicit the laws were regarding decisions made by the agencies. It would appear, despite common belief, that its not just commands from above but also official acts of Congress that have limited the choices by park management. Maybe its time to approach some law makers to amend the law to clarify maintaining access to citizens to activities that don't jeopardize life or property. Imagine that could be tricky.

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Old 10-05-2013   #120
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 311
Hey, how about hiring a jet boat to ferry you and gear upstream from diamond.

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