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Old 12-17-2009   #31
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
Don / Ken

Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y? If you did, was it run over by a car? I have a Jive in the shed that I splatted on every rock for several seasons that I bought from you. The plastic on it is still great. How many blunt's did you see break? What was once hair is now run every weekend, but the idea that the plastic is just as good doesn't hold water in my book. I would sacrafice 10 #'s in boat weight for a bomber boat I could trust. I wonder if the industry is taking care of itself with the weaker plastic. Also, alot of the industry is driven by park and play types in recent years. They may have more interest in the 10 #'s as it is more difficult to loop or perform the latest trick in. Anyway, it is fun to think about what could be. I think durability may be the next break through?

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Old 12-17-2009   #32
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
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Originally Posted by Canada View Post
Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y?
I don't think I've ever broken any of my plastic boats. My Diesel does have a crease under the seat from using it for creaking some mank. So, yes the Wave Sport plastic is softer since the Y days and earlier. I am interested to see if Jackson's plastic is better this year. They were to intending to bake them longer to improve the bond and strength. Hope so! Nonetheless, one thing I really don't want is a heavier boat. I enjoy canyon runs and my body is not as young as it use to be. The ol' back, neck, knees, and shoulders have had a lot of wear and tear form a lifetime of impact sports. So lighter is my hope, but I agree that the conversation and pursuit for more advanced plastic techologies is of great interest for us all. In the meatime we're still having fun, aren't we? I will be interested to try this new JK design. It seems like a blend of a lot of designs factors.


No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
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Old 12-17-2009   #33
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 475
FYI - Just opened an email from CKS about their sale and it looked like they may have some new rocker series on sale for $750 (get 'em) and some new Side Kick (hands down the best kids/young adult kayak ever in my opinion) for $650. And for those that think the Rockers suck, well there is a sweet used Jefe just dying to meet you. Just saying! Don't read anything into it. Just helpin' my brothas from other mpthas out. Those look like some good sale prices for the persons that aspire to upgrade. (Ahmmm, Clark.)

As the dude older than me said. "You don't stop kayaking when you get old, you get old when you stop kayaking." .... And start them kids young, too! As early as 2 or 3 in my opinion. In the pool and on lakes for a few years. Get 'er done! IMO watching the kids and gals take to the sport is almost as great as cleaning a 5+ river. (As you can tell I share the attitude of Glen Plake, which delights in seeing the old Europeans enjoying the slopes during their lunch break ... while he rides the lifts to lap more steep! And were is that next snow storm in CO anyway? Is this boating weather or ski season? One or the other ... let's go!)
No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
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Old 12-18-2009   #34
The next zone, .
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Originally Posted by fred norquist View Post
HA! Thats funny.

I got to agree with fred on this one.. The diesel and the habitat are two of the worst creekers I have ever seen on the water.

Pyrahna, dagger, and LL all make better creekin designs IMO than anything that JK or WS has ever made..

I mean come on ws has been dead in the water since the days of chan and jk makes playboats first and creekers second. Again just my opinion but if you are only looking at ws and jk you are not looking for or paddling the best creekers out there.....

I broke a burn last year and I will be lookin at the new burn, a ll grande or a prijon whatever with that tough as shit plastic. WS and jk are not even on my short list.
"I feel better than any other time when I am in the mountains and uh I cant explain it ya know...." - Shawn Farmer..........
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Old 12-18-2009   #35
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 475

I couldn't wait to get to work this morning and type an apology to 4 Corners River Sports. Just before leaving the office yesterday I typed my previous post in a rush and inconsiderately forgot what forum it was in and that 4 Corners had so generously started this thread. I apologize to 4 Corners for having made a plug for a competitor in your thread. My intent was only to add to the discussion going on by mentioning the availability of Rockers and Jefes at sale prices. I had not checked 4 Corners sales before typing. So in apology, fairness, respect, and hopes of encouraging the sport and the economy, I searched this morning and see equally great sale prices on their new and used boats, too. I am all about enthusiasm for kayaking and think it is fair to suggest that there are some excellent bargains going on for kayaking equipment during this holiday season. I wish all businesses a prosperous holiday season and coming new year. Cheers to all and my sincere apprecation for Andy and the team at 4 Corners. Durango boaters are some of the best spirited and expert boaters anywhere. Kudos to you guys! Thank you for having debuted the new Jackson design to us. It is very cool to receive a preview and much appreciated.

Best wishes to everyone for an adventerous, safe, and enthusiastic boating season. Keep the spirit, obtain the gear you desire, and indulge in and protect our rivers.

Best regards and happy holidays,
No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
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Old 12-18-2009   #36
Durango, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 390
^^^ No worries Ken.

In case any of you missed my previous post about Jacksons new outfitting system, the 2010 Rockers are only going to be made with the Super Linear package and will retail for $799. Pretty sweet price for a brand spankin new creeker.
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Old 12-18-2009   #37
Indian Hills, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 221
who is this going to piss off?

Originally Posted by xkayaker13 View Post
Alex, you hit the nail on the head.

BTW, Jackson and wavesport probably have the poorest plastic of any company on the market in my opinion.
amen brotha. this "superior" crosslink is not what it is cracked up to be, or maybe it is. i cracked a rocker a while back and the worst part about it is it cant be welded. if you are going to have a boat that cant be repaired then make it last longer than the "others" on the market. i dont think the design or outfitting is bad, but i do think the plastic is subpar. i realize creeking is hard on boats but if you are going to charge an additional $200 dollars for a boat make it last $200 dollars longer.

once again a company should try putting some re-enforcement in the plastic to make it last longer and then they could rightfully charge a bit more for the boat.
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Old 12-18-2009   #38
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
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Yes I have seen both broken Y's and Blunts. Now the Blunt was never really that popular of a boat back in the day. Spencer Cooke and some of the SE boys did their best to get Spikes designs in front of alot of people, but as a whole Necky was never that good of a seller in the rockies. The Jive was a super surfing kayak, but boats that allowed easier vertical play sold much better in CO.

WS was the brand in CO for a long time, and becuase of stores like Stark Moon Pyrahna boats gained a nice footprint on the east coast. Necky on the west coast and Perception still had a ton of faithful followers.

Alot of this discussion falls prey to foggy memory. Working and paddling more in those days, it gave us a different perspective. The real hardcore crews of that time didn't spent as much if anytime online talking about kayaking. It's different today. People live a different reality online today. I see some folks who have a huge online persona, in real life aren't necessarily the same folks that would ever step up to lead a group down the river. Or anyone would really choose to follow. But, online they will give a very passionate opinion about just about anything.

Back then no one was talking about Crosslink. They talked about HTP being the best for creeking. It had little to do with the plastic itself, but in sted the process of build boats was the main focus. Which was better: roto molding or blow molding? No one knew what HTP stood for or could pronouce the German term. Everyone talked about cooking. If crosslink is over cooked (yellowish inside), it was a plastic eggshell. Liner had a wider set range and was easier to crank out boats worthy of selling. Later outfitting sold boats, and they design tweaks. Now it tends to fall more onto company loyality. Back then it was true too, but maybe had more to do with fit prefference. See each companies cockpit and seat design allowed for distint paddler angles. Once you got used to something it was hard to switch, everything else felt funny or weird.

It's winter now some most folks are living their paddling personas in our own little Sims universe, ie... Mountainbuzz. Thank you Frenchy for giving us a way to get through the winter. If not for the Buzz, we would still have to get our kicks bashing tourists from the ski lift. Oh, those were the days.

Back to the point. There were more broken Y's in CO than any other creeker... Just because it out sold the others here. More boats on the water = more broken boats. Prijon sold the poorest of any boat company in the states, so they had the fewest breaks. Still keep in mind we are talking about the single worst selling catagory of kayaks... Creek boats. Fewest boats sold, and still the highest number of warrenty requests. Go figure. Maybe people are still searching for the Holy Grail. A 45 lbs kayak that you can send down anything and it will be fine. Oh to dream.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 12-18-2009   #39
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bump, Just Released: Jackson Kayak Villain Prototype Photos
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Old 12-18-2009   #40
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Looks good, can't wait to try one.

JK and Wavesport have the poorest plastic, really Christian? On top of that you think Gore is better then the green?

Put the real Christian back on the forum as this one is on meth. Dagger, pyranha have the most questionable plastic there is and I have 5 boats you can come get to prove it. On top of that, the customer service for Dagger sucks ass and will not give you shit if you hit a rock.

Come on, I know there's the JK haters and it's all good but they are on top of the market and have excellent customer service that will get and keep you in their boats unlike some mentioned above.

ps- wavesport hasn't made a good boat since the stubby that is a river runner

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