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Old 12-16-2009   #11
pnw, Washington
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Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
Looks like a Jefe knock off with crappy outfitting.
You crack me up.

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 12-16-2009   #12
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dropzone, Colorado
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Guess what -- it's not really about innovation in creekboats, it's about making money with a new design that people will get excited about via the hype machine. People can run everything from the Stikine to the Tiegdale just fine in the current offerings, but companies have to keep making new boats to generate new interest. Not to say that new designs with slight performance enhancements are a bad thing, but the real innovation would be making a safe boat (with pillars) that has plastic that will last a hard creeker 5 years (htp) . . . but that wouldn't be too profitable in the long run, now would it?

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Old 12-16-2009   #13
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Alex, you hit the nail on the head.

BTW, Jackson and wavesport probably have the poorest plastic of any company on the market in my opinion.
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Old 12-16-2009   #14
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Front Range, Colorado
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The "durability" argument will go on and on for years until a legit system is in place to rate the boats. Everyone will always claim the boat they spent good money on is "bomber", and back it up with exaggerated accounts of the shit they've smashed theirs into. I'm no exception to this, we are all guilty of the "fish stories". Companies can claim their plastic is "better" by so many different standards that are all fairly irrelevant, and mostly just marketing hype. Until an independent company starts smashing these things into something repeatedly, and thus scientifically testing the strength the durability argument is nothing but a pissing match for what boat you think is cooler. I have no idea what this all has to do with this thread, but I just get tired of the "plastic" debate.
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Old 12-16-2009   #15
silverthorne, Colorado
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Looks like a rounder Nomad or Jefe
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Old 12-16-2009   #16
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Newport, Oregon
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Come on Mythbusters! maybe CKS could do some smash tests....
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Old 12-16-2009   #17
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Rocky Mountain Hooliganz, Rocky Mountain High
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The boat definitely looks SWEET from what is shown!! I don't see any outfitting in the picture to judge. (Hard to judge from a picture anyway's) I'm still eye F****N the new "Prijon Pure" (fan of German engineering)!! Ha Haaa!! I wonder if any other new boats will be coming out this season???
Dream as if you'll live forever; Live as if you'll die today - James Dean
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Old 12-16-2009   #18
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Boulder, Colorado
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I can't resist a winter boat bullshit session.

Speaking of bullshit, it is total bullshit that we need to have a scientific test to determine if some plastics are better than others. It's well known by any creekboater (except apparently Tom who just learned) that the HTP plastics used by Prijon and Salto hold up much much better than the linear plastics. It's also well known that the old Wavesport crosslink plastics were on par. It may not be written up in Helvetica 12 point and bound in a journal, but there are plenty of field tests that prove this to be true.

As for all the linear plastics on today's boats, the differences are more subtle. There do appear to be some differences, but suffice it to say they all suck and in my opinion the best plastic is the one with the best warranty. If Jackson copies a Jefe and has a better warranty (which they seem to), then I say great, that's a innovation I'm down with. If they ever get their crosslink plastic fixed so it actually holds up, then that would be fantastic.

As for Jackson and Wavesport being the only real manufacturers out there - seriously KV, I generally respect your opinions, but on this one I call bullshit. The other manufacturers must have some incredible marketing machines to trick people into buying their vastly inferior boats because the rivers certainly aren't dominated by these JK & WS products.

My take is in the outdoors industry (same can probably be said about almost any industry) the product innovations tend to come in spurts. My observation is the Nomad initiated a spurt that lead to the current body of creek boats. New designs seem to all be very slight variations on theme, and that's fine. But I'm definitely with Alex that the low hanging fruit for creek boat innovation is durability. Since there's no market incentive, I think we need a government mandate.
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Old 12-16-2009   #19
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Front Range, Colorado
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I never said the plastics should be tested. I said the boats. You can use whatever plastic your heart desires. There are way more factors than just the type of plastic. How thick the plastic is in key areas, how the plastic is supported by the foam, how the outfitting connects to said plastic and so on. Every company has different theories on how all this stuff should work together. So I don't think it is really fair to say XYZ company is bomber because they use ABC plastic. My feeling is, until there is a legit way to compare this stuff quit bickering, and paddle the boat you're stoked about and gets you running what you like to run. In the end, I know this is all very much just wishful thinking.
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Old 12-16-2009   #20
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Hull shape, outfitting, etc. are very minor factors in durability of the hull. Sometimes it is more of a a factor, like the first Nomads that had a wear spot at the front of the seat, and I think the M3s have a weak spot where the chines are. Dagger fixed the seat problem but those things still get crushed easier than playdough. Thickness tends to be limited by people's demands on keeping the weight under a certain limit. So really plastic in the major factor in durability and that's why it's the main point of discussion, not how the outfitting attaches.

Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.

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