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Old 09-22-2011   #31
Dipshit with the most.
carvedog's Avatar
Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,496
Originally Posted by rg5hole View Post

Just so we are clear I would happily kayak the grand canyon without a life vest, let alone bring a spare. My drysuit provides more than the 15 lbs of buoyancy most class V vests provide anyway.
That guy on the MF last year floated the last ten miles at flood stage in just a dry suit. Really happy he didn't get a hole in it.

The "Nanny State" idea that we must protect every one from everything is BS. 10 years guiding full time, 5 years part time and 10 years of private boating sometimes with very large groups on extended trips in extreme conditions and I have yet to see a PFD failure of any kind. Not even one.

I agree with not crapping in the canyon unless there are very extenuating circumstancess.
Not even touching the natural wildlife comment....

"Donkay is that you?"

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Old 09-22-2011   #32
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
Everyone that I kayak with packs their poop out, so it's kind of a non-issue and stupid argument. Leaving it in the canyon is wrong.

I really don't get the argument of needing an extra PFD. Rafters are pretty vulnerable to taking horrible swims, sense I have yet to see any of ya'll rafters hit a roll, so I get why you might think a PFD is important. Most kayakers that I know consider their kayak to be their Personal Floatation Device of choice, and you usually only use your backup PFD that you are wearing when you totally screw up and swim. If I get so intoxicated that I can't roll, then I have more concerns than needing an extra PFD during my swim, since I already am wearing the only one that I need. If I'm sober, I'm quite sure the Grand is the last place I'm going to swim. It's not like there is any class V down there. It's flat. Hell, it's not even as committing as some places we go since you can actually hike out.

I'm pretty sure a broken PFD can be fixed with Gorilla Tape, thread and needle, and a cam strap. No it won't blow away, because it has a throw rope and pin kit in it, making it my single heaviest piece of equipment besides my kayak.

That said, since rules are rules, Mattie, could you please pack our extra PFD's for our November trip. After all, it's your choice to take those massive rubber boats, and since you are you should have plenty of room. If you say no then we are going to poach your groover. See you in the canyon!

Kyle McCutchen
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Old 09-22-2011   #33
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,346
Aside from discussions on whether or not it is "needed", your choice to follow or not follow the regs is best made after considering the ramifications of getting caught. Violations in the park go to federal court, down in AZ, correct? Do you really want to deal with that for not having a spare pfd or no groover?

I can't say as a rafter I'd welcome some low-bagging kayaker to come use our groover because he doesn't want to carry one. Deal with your own shit.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 09-22-2011   #34
Rez072's Avatar
Moscow, Idaho
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 88
You don't need no PFD to AQUADUECE! Dilution is the Solution to Pollution people.

Seriously though, how many poos can you pack into 1 CFS?
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Old 09-23-2011   #35
Crested Butte, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 298
I'm looking for a list of fresh water supply that we can filter for our daily water needs, anyone know of a list?
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Old 09-24-2011   #36
rwhyman's Avatar
Unincorporated Douglas County, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 961
Originally Posted by jeffsssmith View Post
I'm looking for a list of fresh water supply that we can filter for our daily water needs, anyone know of a list?
Where to Find Water - Rafting Grand Canyon

Search this whole site for other useful info.
Karma is like this: If we set causes in motion the effects come back to us.
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Old 09-24-2011   #37
Crested Butte, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by rwhyman View Post
Where to Find Water - Rafting Grand Canyon

Search this whole site for other useful info.

Thanks, just what I was looking for.
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Old 09-24-2011   #38
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,407
GCPBA is an association of private boaters. They do a bunch of good things including the most helpful tips on Grand Canyon boating I have found.

I joined up a few years ago just because I like what they are attempting to do. No organization is perfect. Having said that and if you have the funds left over from just living in these hard economic times, GCPBA needs all the money they get to keep us private boaters represented in the Grand Canyon. I am not against commercial outfitters as they serve a need if managed properly. The commercial outfitters have a big voice in management of the Grand Canyon recreational boating and I think GCPBA deserves our support. I am not associated with GCPBA except as a dues paying member.
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Old 09-24-2011   #39
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
The GCPBA was the lead organization that sued the NPS when a management plan with user allocation favoring the outfitters and perpetuating the GC permit waiting list (up to 15 or so years at the time) was released. American Whitewater and several other groups joined the lawsuit but GCPBA got the ball rolling, from what I understand. They were successful in gaining increased allocation for us private boaters who now have a roughly 50% share. There are a number of other issues that were resolved in the current management plan in favor of private boaters.

David L or RichP know more about the history and are current and former GCPBA Board members, respectively.

GCPBA is the private boating community's representative at the table with the NPS and other GC boating stakeholder groups. For this reason they are also a new Partner with Mountainbuzz and enjoy the Site's support.

They have a website with a wealth of information and resources. They also host a very active email listserve where you can tap into a community with collective centuries of experience running the GC in particular and river running in general.

You may have noticed it seems a lot easier to run the Grand over the last 5 or 6 years and you're right. This is largely due to the huge effort GCPBA has put forth.

Mountain Buzz Partnership Director
Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 09-26-2011   #40
Carbondale, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10
Neat gents and gals, I love all the talk about poop and pfds. DOMR, I have a low float vest, an old lotis, packs mini. So the real question is what type of boat for the trip... High volume creeker, bag of mushrooms and a squirrt boat, canoe with some nice rocker and tumblehome...?

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