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Old 10-13-2008   #31
Droboat's Avatar
Wild Wild West, Colorado
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 214
Darwin Thwarted

"Qualify boaters. Don't they require a permit of sorts for hiking? You have to take a wilderness/camping/survival course or something? Why can't it be that way for boaters? I mean, obviously a "test" of sorts and permitting would weed out the unexperienced."

Hunter safety courses are required in most states before you can get certain hunting licenses.

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Old 10-13-2008   #32
no tengo
mania's Avatar
Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
Originally Posted by Droboat View Post
Hunter safety courses are required in most states before you can get certain hunting licenses.
ah yes well I see you have your mountainbuzz badge go right ahead sir!

there is not and should not be a license to kayak! kayaking/rafting/tubing/swimming is not a crime!

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Old 10-13-2008   #33
Chip's Avatar
SE, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,098
Grand Canyon?

The GC lottery is only for private boaters (a minority of the user days).

The commercial river-bus lines hold the upper hand, and for the most part run huge motor rigs crowded with people who don't boat, won't boat, and couldn't be bothered to boat on their own. The big outfitters also got a f-ing heliport built in the depths of the canyon, so they can shove their dudes through in five days and fly them out. Disgusting, but way profitable.

The Grand Canyon is a good example of how the Pork Service holds up against the profiteers: not hardly at all.

So— is the Grand Canyon liberated? Free?

Yeah, right.
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Old 10-14-2008   #34
no tengo
mania's Avatar
Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
Here is how to do it right.

first you need one of these. put the kayaks inside along with a 50 caliber machine gun.

If the rangers stop you just say the kayaks were confiscated from some hippie poachers and the gun is for shooting cars with obama stickers. This should get them off your back.

Now get your crew together.

The guy in the upper left is your probe. The chick is your shuttle bunny. Mr T is there to handle any rangers who don't buy your story (I think I've seen him on this forum).

Finally use Mr T to kick ass around here.

I pity the fool who wont let us paddle on public lands!
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Old 10-14-2008   #35
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 403
YLA for life

National Parks should be treated as wilderness, that is the only way to manage a national park.

There is so much good whitewater in YNP that it is crime you cannot kayak. Almost all other National Park allows kayaking, and ALL wilderness areas allow it. Yosemite bans just some rivers and other than that all are legal that I know of Zion, Grand Canyon, Teton. In Teton, which is connected to YNP it is not just the S. Fork, you can get a permit to kayak ANY river in Teton.

The Rescue excuse is a bunch of crap. As someone said rescue from the Zion Narrows during flows is much more difficult than on the Black Canyon.

Poaching the Black Canyon is definitely fun. It is a great feeling to slip into the water in the dark and proceed to crack open the forbidden fruit and chow down. 20 good rapids, 12 or so class V's, 18 miles, loads of wildlife and solitude.

How could wading in the channel and catching a fish reeling it in, ripping the hook out and releasing it be less impact than floating on the surface? As someone said the rule was born in the 50's to discourage drift boat fishing. Kayaking really is a very low impact activity and is allowed in ALL wilderness areas.

Cave Falls is barely even in the park. Plus it is in an ad with a kayaker running it for Sperry shoes in Paddler magazine.

AW screwed up bad by wanting to allow boating on the Lamar River, which is such a joke I cant stand it. That is like the serenghetti of Yellowstone with thousands of Buffalo, Elk and Wolves and hundreds of tourists watching it. To have a bright colored kayak float through there would be a crime. That is where AW's proposal went wrong. They should have just asked for The Black Canyon, Falls River and the Fireholes before 8 AM. Whoever wrote the AW proposal probably never even went to the park, and wrote the request on the east coast. They probably ran Gorilla and figured they would write it up that night. You would never want kayakers in the Lamar Valley.

I cant believe the new generation has'nt fired up Collander Falls yet, the 70'er in the pic. When that goes it will be a great day for the YLA.]

The park service will read these posts and use them against kayakers, that is their standard way of operating.

Montana Surf summed it up pretty good:
"The parks stance on this issue is firm and unchanging, so in respect to the park we are left with only one alternative, Poach That Shit."

YLA for life
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Old 10-14-2008   #36
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
Sign a disclaimer saying no government rescue will take place.

Have a team of local boaters on a phone tree to help if necessary.

Have a permit to access and strict liability if you tear anything up.

If we recieved a call that someone was missing on a local river, we would all leave our jobs and go be a part of fiinding them. Frankly, as to a george rescue, I'd rather have a group of class IV and V boaters boaters with ropes and a some z drag than any formal rescue team.

Have permits of $35 per day that is put in a pool to cover damages caused by any boaters.
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Old 10-14-2008   #37
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,239
Like Canada said,make a permitted boater sign a waiver ,have volunteer safety boaters somewhat available.Because it is permitted they know who did what when if someones causes a problem.If they did open it up I'd like to see some intermediate and advanced runs,not just hair.I suppose they would then need a easy run too, that would probably encourage tubers and k-mart rafters though.

If I saw Mr. T sportin' that rig I'd have to bomb him with taters just like we used to do his Cady when he was a bouncer at Fitzwilly's.We were cooks and dish dogs at the restaraunt on the other side of the lot he parked a perfect distance for tater throwing,had no idea who the hell Mr.T was ,glad we didn't find out the hard way.
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Old 10-14-2008   #38
DurangoSteve's Avatar
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2001
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,907
F**kin' NPS. They're just too lazy to want to try something "new."

Years ago I climbed the NW Face of Half Dome in Yosemite. The park has thousands of climbing routes and hosts thousands of climbers from across the globe. They have climbing rangers. They have a system of sorts.

Anyhow, we registered to climb Half Dome, gave 'em our expected completion date... and foolishly I gave them my parents' phone number as an emergency contact. Long story short: we were slow hauling our crap through the chimneys and such and were a day late getting back down to the valley. When we "checked out" with the rangers, they casually mentioned that they had called my Mom to let her know we were late. They were too f**kin' lazy to go out to the meadow outside their office to use the telescope they had trained on Half Dome to see if we were splattered or just slow. Meanwhile, my Mom is freaking out because of the "heads up" call.

Needless to say, I'm no big fan of the NPS. It's an underfunded, lumbering bureaucracy of folks who don't like to work much.
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Old 10-14-2008   #39
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
anybody notice how the lady in charge of our National Parks service is a naturalized citizen from England?

America is just a little fucked up, just a little
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Old 10-14-2008   #40
Cody, Wyoming
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 260
Lovin the A-Team idea....

Since I live here in Cody and have a local perspective I will chime in,

My number one rule when boating or climbing in this area is you are on your own. Dont plan on a rescue or someone to come and get you. To me that is in part, the draw and adventure you are seeking. I remember last winter being 8 miles into wilderness in the middle of nowhere getting ready to push my limits on a new route and my partner telling me "no fucking around " as I stepped on to one of the rockies tallest free hanging pillars of ice. I understood the risk I was taking and the responsibility for myself and my partner only. The great part of the kayaking community is if one of us were in trouble a few quick phone calls and I know there would be a posse on the road in a matter of no time. Kayaking in the park is no different then many of the remote destinations we travel to and I believe in some part their lack of knowledge of what we do is reasoning for the ban. We need someone or a group with a legal background and level heads to take front of what we are seeking. Perhaps AW can try again while working with local resources and also getting some national publicity would help.

Luckily there are some places in the U.S. where we can find ourselves "out there" and on our own. As long as those places exist we will continue to find the allure of adventure awaiting us.

Think BIG
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