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Old 06-12-2010   #91
denver, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by powdahound76 View Post
Thanks for your help and getting my buddy with your throwbag! You help is and was greatly appreciated. We got him all stitched up and he and I are working hard saving lives and stompin' out disease this weekend. That was Golden swiftwater team, FYI.
Good to hear he's ok. I thought it was the swiftwater team but I chose my words carefully just in case. Hopefully they actually knew what and where Elbow was and they just wanted to be shown exactly where he was.

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Old 06-12-2010   #92
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 566
Two facts I'd like to point out that are supported by years of observations:

1. Clear Creek Sheriff Don Krueger is a power hungry ass
2. Duke Bradford is a Stand Up MOFO and I would entrust my life to his judgement any day of the week

There's a lot of emotion flowing through this thread, but let's keep in mind that we're all river enthusiasts as well as a bunch of loud mouths ready to pipe up anytime we hear about something like this. Look out for one another and know the person you publicly bash today might have to save your ass tomorrow.

Oh, and RGAHole - priceless.

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Old 06-12-2010   #93
Aspen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 377
Law enforcement can cuff for restraint at their discretion if they need to contain a situation. You are not necessarily under arrest if you are cuffed
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Old 06-12-2010   #94
Breckenridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by ZGjethro View Post
Law enforcement can cuff for restraint at their discretion if they need to contain a situation. You are not necessarily under arrest if you are cuffed
Yep, not unusual for a cop to cuff someone just to get them under control. Does not necessarily mean they are under arrest.
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Old 06-12-2010   #95
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 69
AVA has adressed the situation here (Colorado Rafting - Arkansas Valley Adventures (AVA) | Facebook) on their facebook page and is asking people to contact the sheriff to ask to drop the charges.
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Old 06-12-2010   #96
*********, SwiftH20-News
Camarillo, California
Paddling Since: 1974
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
swiftwater rescue - guide arrested

This incident has sparked a lot of discussion on the SwiftH20-News as well.

One recommendation is for leaders in the paddling community to do some pre-planning with your fire-rescue, law enforcement counterparts in advance of the season. Not all emergency responders have the needed swiftwater rescue training, but many do.

When water is cold, as you know, time is of the essence in terms of extracting and treating victims. This needs to also be communicated to local officials in clear terms.

And in major events, like the flash flood in Arkansas, additional swiftwater rescue trained resources may be needed - paddlers could provide much needed assistance, but this needs to be sorted out in advance and you would have to work through incident command.

Just my thoughts on this.

SwiftH20-News Moderator

SwiftH2O-News : Swiftwater/flood rescue information & re

Swiftwater Rescue News
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Old 06-12-2010   #97
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

Enough is enough. Now folks are spouting off just to add flue to the fire.

The paddlers on this site are the captains of our own boats. That's why we're on here to share stories and learn from each other. If we weren't take charge people by nature we would have never taken up this individual sport in the first place. We would just be commerial rafters at best.

I think the point that I'm trying to make is that we would have done things differently, and we can't imagine that anyone on the outside world has as much of an idea on how to do it as us. It's because we lie awake at night thinking about stuff like this and have for years. I don't dream about running into a burning building or being the first on scene at a car wreck. Most of us have pulled friends and strangers out of the water and we replay that in our heads over and over again. We would have all handled it in different ways.

It pisses us off that the FD did not respect the guides skills and maybe that they even got involved in the first place. That was the spark that started all of this. And, the hand cuffs took it over the top even more. But, it happened it sucks and maybe the FD was trying to make a point. Just something to keep in mind. They put their foot down and that is it. Would I have done things different most likely, but it won't change what happened.

The part to take away is that we now know what will happen if you act out against the commands of higher official on site. The best thing we can do is to stay heads up, watch your buddies back, have a good saftey boater on each trip, self rescue quickly, and be safe out there. It should have never gotten to this point in the first place.

It's high water season and things happen lightning fast. Be safe and have fun.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 06-12-2010   #98
Buena Vista/Breckenridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12
Thanks Boaters--Please contact the Sheriff

Hi everyone,

AVA has had an incredible outpouring of support from fellow boaters as well as our guests in response to this situation. Thank you to everyone!

We are asking that people PLEASE contact Sheriff Don Krueger to ask him to drop the charges against Ryan Snodgrass.

His email is

His phone # is 303-679-2376 .


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Old 06-12-2010   #99
craven_morhead's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 747
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A couple of quick legal issues:

1. You're under arrest when a reasonable person in your shoes would feel that his freedom of movement is restricted in a significant way by law enforcement action. Since a reasonable person in handcuffs would feel that their movement is restricted in a significant way, for practical purposes, handcuffs = a custodial arrest. An arrest requires probable cause that the person has committed a crime. Note that the cops can also effect an "investigative stop" without arresting you. A traffic stop is the most common investigative stop. The cop needs a reasonable articulable suspicion that you've committed a crime, and they can detain you for a "reasonable" period of time that lets them conduct their investigation. Depending on how much they restrict your movement and how long the stop lasts, an investigative stop can cross the line and become an arrest.

2. Depending on how fast things move through the system with the PD, Krueger may not be the one to talk to about dropping the charges. It may have already gotten handed off to local prosecutors if it was charged under a municipal code, or, if it was charged under the colorado statute, the JeffCo DA's office.
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Old 06-12-2010   #100
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6
Having read through much of this thread, all I can say is that what happened to Ryan was wrong - I haven't ever rafted with him but would not pass up the chance. If there's a fund being set up to help him out, please let me know.

I am, however, a little troubled by the slams on firefighters. As with any broad generalization about any group, there are inherently truths and falsehoods held within. Me, personally, I like and respect first responders (the ones without guns - the ones with guns scare the shit out of me). I generally raft with a bunch of fire fighters, paramedics, EMTs, ski patrol, and flight nurses. I trust them with my life and the lives of my kids. They are my friends and my family.

So I guess in summary, as they say in the hood, "If you fuck with the bean, you get the burrito." Let's back up Ryan and do what we can.

"It is not death or dying which is tragic, but rather to have existed without fully participating in life is the deepest personal tragedy." - Edward Abbey
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