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Old 09-28-2010   #41
freexbiker's Avatar
B.F.E., Wyoming
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 907
Originally Posted by cayo 2 View Post
lol Slave

JEFF,What will you not working there really change/affect ,mostly you.It's really up to how important the issue is to you.See if your boss can use you on another job.

So it's more of a fishing issue,is this stretch even worth boating?

Joe,I know it doesn't meet your mank standards but looks like there is some good 3-4 at high flows ,wasn't shit crankin' recently,you been gettin' any Crabapple,Blanco,Grape,Pedrenales ,etc.?

If you are not a fisherman,I can partially see Yeti's point[ why he had to be a dick about it I DON'T GET] just paddle through.If you challenge these a holes without legal representation you will lose.You wanna' pay for lawyers or let AW or CWA handle it[ donate]. I got busted on the friggin lwr.Blue[below normal takeout] ,another fishing stretch not worth kayaking owned by some Texas billionaire.We got out and f'ed around in a real dumb spot.They pressed charges ,cop at take out,I went to court without lawyer,they didn't even hear my side of story.DA made take it or leave it plea bargain,fines one year probation,I think it can be expunged.If you have other shit on your record it might be worth fighting=$.

I don't think anyone is saying this stretch isn't worth floating(hell I've never floated it, But its one I have always wanted to do) we are just pointing out yeti is bringing up other problems not related to the topic.

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Old 09-28-2010   #42
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 141
Back to the original post topic, I agree with a few other points made (by gh, Sarah and others):

Few of us can truly say our jobs entirely align with our values. I went out of my way to have a career that would align with my values, but in the end, there are plenty of compromises that I've had to make. Only you can decide if this compromise is simply too much for you. To me, this depends on how much you think your work on his project facilitates his attempt to suppress paddling and fishing, and how much effect you'll have by not working on it. I don't simply mean that to say that if someone else would do the job, then you might as well do it. This logic alone could lead to some severe abuses. Think of a Wall Street trader..."Gee, if I don't sell this subprime mortgage backed security, someone else will." Clearly some things are wrong, and are recognized as wrong by 99% of people. But to me, the Shaw situation is different: it is truly a difference of opinion. One's opinion obviously varies with whether one is a landowner, paddler, or fisherman.

But, if you do the work, it would be a great idea to bring your boat to work, and talk to as many people as possible about how important having access to our public waterways is.

Good luck with your decision.

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Old 09-28-2010   #43
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I don't even know where exactly it is[which run ] ,I was asking.I've done the intermediate run in the book a couple times,I thought it was some other section.I know Yeti does some higher sections not in the book that not as many people do.I should know but don't,where is it?
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Old 09-28-2010   #44
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at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,345
I can't say what I'd do, because it would take a bit more thought than just replying to a post. While it is important to make a living, you can only do what you can do. What you can do is lend your labor, and then spend your dollar. I think it comes down to how strongly you feel about the topic at hand (I'm not 100% up on it). These may not be comparable, but perhaps only in hindsight is that obvious: I sure am glad I didn't work on the Glen Canyon Dam nor anything to do with nuclear weaponry. Those mean a lot to me, and I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to make my stand with my feet.

I don't recommend you take a stand if you quit, or even position yourself as if you considered it. Just move on, or do the work. As others say, be an ambassador. The last thing you need is to develop a work-reputation as picky, a troublemaker, etc. An employer isn't going to want someone who took a stand, especially if they have 10 people to choose from.

Quiet your mind and listen to your gut.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 09-29-2010   #45
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Barnard(Marshall), North Carolina
Paddling Since: wen?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 285
I would do the job, all the while looking for anything illegal or out of code, etc. and report it. If shaw want to be a bitch and call the law because you are "trespassing" then you should be able to call him out on any issues. You may not find or see anything, but in my experience, people who try to manipulate the laws for their gain tend to think that most laws laws don't apply to them. Maybe carve a little grafitti around the ranch concerning the issue. If you ever have a face to face with him and cant stand it anymore, tell him he is a stupid arrogant piece of shit that can go fuck himself and tell him why. Does he have a daughter? Or a wife? You could really fuck with him there. If you feel guilty about working for him, maybe work for him as long as you can stand and donate a small percentage of your wages to AW. Personally I would do a combo of all of the above, depending on circumstances. Another possibility is the scene in fight club where they get the guy in bathroom and threaten to cut off his balls.

Oh and Yeti- FUCK YOU! what does it matter if there are many more miles of the river to float? If everyone took your advice Shaw and douches like him would continue to buy land up and down the river and try to keep you off those stretches too! Do you really think this guy will respond to you being "respectfull"? He doesn't own the fish just like he doesn't own the water. Additionally Yeti, why do you think he has constructedd such low bridges and strung wires across the river in fast water? That isn't to prevent you from fishing it is there to dissuade you from floating the section at all, and to cause you to have to trespass at high water. You act like a broken slave or medievil peasant, happy to cower to your master and thankfully scoop up whatever rotten bone is thrown to you while they laugh at your weakness and pathetic lack of balls. You probably work for the guy.
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Old 09-29-2010   #46
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The High Ground, Colorado
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Originally Posted by matt cook View Post
Additionally Yeti, why do you think he has constructedd such low bridges and strung wires across the river in fast water?
The low bridge was there before he bought the place and there's not any barbed wire across the river. I also don't remember any thing "fast" about the water through his place either. Just keeping it truthful.
"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-29-2010   #47
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Littleton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 98
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It's true, that the bridges were there before the Shah bought the place, and to my knowledge, they've never strung barbed wire across the channel. It is a bit technical through there in rafts due to the numerous fish habitat "improvements", low head dams etc. in both Harmel's and Wilder It was probably a pretty easy piece of water before those were built, but some of these structures take a bit of skill to negotiate.

The bridge in question, on Wilder was the subject of some disagreemnet between the Corps of Engineers and the fine folks at Wilder this previous spring due to the fact that 2 of the 3 of the channels between the bridge pilings were completely blocked with wood and the folks at Wilder had no intention of removing it or allowing it's removal. I'm not quite sure what was agreed upon, but suffice it to say the Corps was made aware of it, as was the Forest Service and a short time later the wood was gone.

That brings me to a question that I think needs to be addressed as part of this larger right to float issue - How to deal with man made hazards or obstructions in the channel, weather the hazard itself be manmade, or something that occurs as a direct result of a manmade structure in the channel. I'm of the opinion that the way to deal with this is to legalize a limited right to portage around hazards, especially manmade ones.
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Old 09-29-2010   #48
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Barnard(Marshall), North Carolina
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I'm sorry, I thought I had read that these things were newer, although I swear someone was talking about barbed wire on bridges or across the river.

Oh, and to Yeti, I recant and apologize for the FUCK YOU, but nothing else I said. Respect is earned not demanded, and those who demand it will never give it back in return.
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Old 09-29-2010   #49
Crested Butte, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 85
There has never been a problem on the Middle Taylor with fences, the bridge has been there for years, we had no problem getting under it until the river was damned up below the bridge and backed up the water. Even then, we were allowed to portage around the bridge at high water and keep it clear of debri. The new feature on the bridge is the angle iron put in as cross braces that stick down below the logs that support the bridge. I really dont know why these were put in other than to discourage boating. I guess shaw would call them structural supports, however the bridge has been the same for the 22 years I have floated down this section. We have made a video about this situation and I posted it under The Right to Float on the buzz. The angle iron is visible in the video. Other than that, no obvious obstructions are on the Middle Taylor. shaw has a permit to replace the bridge from Gunnison County, but it will have to be at least a foot higher than the highest rail on the exsisting bridge. This will allow even the highest fishing rigs plenty of room to pass. I doubt that he will allow this, he will make sure that we are not allowed to float through his property before he builds the new bridge. If we dont rally together and force the issue soon, we will loose!! Thanks JS for starting the discussion again, and I ask everyone to step up and support AW, with national support we can win, check out the vid and let us know what you think, Thanks
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Old 10-02-2010   #50
Crested Butte, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Mar 2007
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It looks like the construction may be delayed until a later date, dont know why, but it seems like I won't be making any decisions on whether I will go with my values or my wallet on this issue for now. Thanks for all the replies, there were some that made me think about this issue a little differently and I appreciate the efforts.

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