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Old 08-01-2006   #11
loveland, Colorado
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 317
count me in

I've got time and money to throw at this freak. Let's convince AWA to place this on their priority list for general access reasons alone. I know zilch about this creek but the map shows it somewhat roadside with numerous campsites. Someone please confirm it's worthy of a fight other than just a hairy 1stD.

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Old 08-01-2006   #12
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 148
The put-in and take-out on this run are roadside, but the creek itself is not. It is in northern Routt and has a great "wilderness-y" feel to it. By no means is this some "hairy 1st d." Rather, depennding upon the flows, it is IV+ to V-ish. We here in the 'Boat definitely wat to protect access to this gem. It typically starts to run early (late march early april) due to dam releases from Steamboat Lake and provides a great warm-up to the season.

I too, feel that with the proper support, this stretch of river could provide the spark we need to set some real precedent here in CO. Dave Moss surely has some $ for the laywers- but not the kind that multi-millionaire, second-home-owning, sportsman pardise, HOA groups can bring to the table. Approached correctly, I believe that recreational water users' rights in our state could be both advanced and secured through this waterway.

I know that we, here in Routt, would certainly appreciate any help, if needed, this spring from any of you 'buzzards out there with the time and/or expertise. So, come on up early next season and hit the first hole goin' and we'll be more than happy to guide you down this tasty creek.

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Old 03-29-2007   #13
placerville, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 732
what is the story this year? anyone been down yet? is the usually water the 1st week of june? thanks
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Old 03-29-2007   #14
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Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 679
When my group did Willow in 2003(?), some guy at the CRC2 listed take out told us we couldn't park there. Said he or the guy he worked for (can't remember all the details) owned essentially not only the shoulder but the road too. We didn't want to argue so we just ran the lower Elk after Willow. Fun run, and the Elk was flooding so it was a nice little surprise and was glad the guy sent us downstream to park.

If the guy doesn't want boaters to park there, I think a simple sign stating that, and directing them to the lower Elk take out would absolutely solve the problem. I think most here on the Buzz would respect that and properly convey our disapproval to any who broke that rule. I don't know of any kayaker that would risk the access to a waterway or the rath of the boating community to have convenient parking.

I bet we could even get a collection and pay for the sign. I've got $20 to spare, anyone else?

But if the guy just doesn't like kayakers and doesn't want them in "his" creek... well, he and we will have to waste a bunch of time and effort, get angry at each other, and end up paying a bunch of money to let someone else decide what is going to happen.

Does the Elk go through his property also? If so, why isn't that an issue?

If he is scanning the Buzz, I'd like to hear his view and perhaps we could come to an agreement. But I'm sure his lawyer would advise against this as it could lead to an arrangement where he didn't get paid.

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Old 03-29-2007   #15
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 490
Hey Buzzards and Buzz Administrator,

When they start releasing out of Steamboat Lake and Willow starts to go, can we post a sticky on the buzz to organize a group float? I think it's very important to identify legal parking areas and to not leave trash in the said post, too. Don't want to give this guy or other residents any legitimate issues with boaters.

I think a great example of a good relationship and collaboration is the access at Bailey. I've met representatives of that property by the twin culverts put-in twice and both times it was very cool, but the person did tell me once that they've had a few isolated instances where people were parking too far out in the road. I've also seen some trash left there (of course we picked it up, but it pissed me off). Trash and destructive/ obstructive parking seem like two of the biggest reasons why people don't like to see recreationists of any kind in their back yards.

I'll bring at least one car of front rangers up there for a run. . .now that Chunder's not gonna' get me with his AT when he sees my Golden, CO ID (damn, I miss those posts).
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Old 03-29-2007   #16
oarbender's Avatar
ww guide/ frame builder/welder, mobile fabrication gig
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 247
Not at all trying to stir the pot, but didn't an acsess issue happen down on the lakefork in the mid 90's? If I remeber correctly, it did involve a commercial outfitter , and in a nut shell, a super rich land owner dropped a tree across, making it a madatory portage....... a portage that took place on his land.

Also, as I understand, the landowner won.

I know this topic is geared toward private boaters, but its still apples and apples, or is it?
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Old 03-29-2007   #17
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Summit, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,085
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Willow's been on my list. I'd like to do that and would certainly support a group float. Obviously, if we do something like that, we want to set a good impression, so it would be nice to know whether the take-out is legit or if we need to continue down further before we accidentally bring a bunch of people in to access the river illegaly, if that is in fact the case. Wouldn't exactly help our cause, if you know what I mean. If there's an access issue, the Buzz Crew is definately in support of stickying the thread for the event when it comes around.

"The world would be a better place if everyone kayaked."-Brad Ludden (Valhalla)
"You only get one chance to run a drop blind."-DD
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Old 03-29-2007   #18
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Englewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
Anyone have info on the case Oarbender is referring to - names, dates, etc? I know there have been problems on the Lake Fork, but I've not heard of that incident and would like to know more. I would actually be quite surprised if that had happened, because the that is exactly the kind of situation that everyone is contemplating up on Willow this year, and I've not seen any legal precedent on that specific issue. If a court ruled that way, it would limit our floating rights substantially.

While the legal bills might run up in order to prove it, as I mentioned in my previous post, I believe the bigger danger lies with Dave Moss than with any kayakers paddling Willow without touching banks or riverbed on Moss' land. Just remember that if the case goes against us, it could alter our rights permanently. Like the guys above said, best to have a good relationship with the landowner...but Dave seems to be intent on asserting his fictional right to prevent legal passage on Willow.

And yes, there are private property and parking issues at the put-in and/or take-out. I'm sure someone from Routt County will shed some light on that when the reservoir starts releasing.
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Old 03-29-2007   #19
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 148
We're going with BillyD on the put-in being public prop. He's in the biz and in the know on those issues. The take-out, as has been previously mentioned ,is not even owned by DM, but rather his brother.
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Old 03-29-2007   #20
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Steamboat Springs, CO
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 213
The fence is an interferance of sportsmans rights. If they interfere in such a manner, file a suit to take his land. You can not put a fence up and then expect boaters NOT to go around it. Colorado is way to pussy to make a judgement on the issues at stake. But, hey! All the other states have decided upon the high water mark.
BTW, What lot and subdivision is this in? Ill look at a plat map, available at the clerk and recorder for $5

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