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Old 03-26-2005   #1
California Canoe and Kayak Oakland California
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Why are some kayakers acting like territorial surfers?

Colordo saw a couple of first descents last year and hopefully this year will have more with the increased snowpack. First descents recently have been logged with such names like Treasure Canyon or Secret Ditch or whatever. I couldn't believe my eyes when someone actually blindfolded his paddling partner because he didn't want him to know where they were going. Maybe it was just a joke but here is my point.

Hopefully, most of us know that there is a Right to Float issue here in Colorado. And currently there are great people working on a ballot initiative that can change Colorado water law for the better. One thing that is needed for this ballot initiative to work is an entire inventory of navigable rivers in Colorado 50 cfs and over. I understand if your proud of your first descent and don't won't to share it with anybody else maybe because of private property issues or just plain ego, but everybody can win big if we work together on this. This is my first post to anybody on this subject. I will be working all summer on this project. If anybody reads this post and would like to help or knows the right people to contact, please email me at huhh7@hotmail.com

Thank you for your time,

Matt Parker

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Old 03-26-2005   #2
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
I thought the same thing!!!

I thought that the " MY BEACH, MY WAVE, GO HOME" mentalty ended in the 80's in Oxanard, Cali or was stuck in Hawaii these days but it seems to be alive and well in the whitewater scene...

I agree that all the boaters need to get together behind this issue from the newest swimmer like my self to the Tao wannabe's out there (no disrespct ment).
I would like to just be able to know where some of these SECERET spots are just to watch some of you guys in with my jaw hanging...

"If you don't stand together you stand alone"

Everyone needs to get behind this water access issue just like we did for beach access.

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Old 03-26-2005   #3
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Lakewood, Colorasta
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 843
Yeah you friggin valley's, better look out because I just bleached my dreads, gotta new pink and black wetsuit, aquasealed my checkered vans. Better not shoulder hop my m wave or I'll blast you with in my dancer. Ah yes the beloved Surf Punks. . . remember what Jimi said. . . "and you'll never hear surf music again.
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Old 03-26-2005   #4
Charc in = charc out
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Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
i thought we were collectively over-it on this topic ...

to answer your questions about the two runs you mentioned.

treasure canyon: i was on the trip, but not everything (including a spectacular side creek with waterfalls) was run on the one trip that went down it. i thought that it was a noteable enough "find" & that the photos were nice enough that the cat should be marginally let outta the bag. i promised the creek's finders that i wouldn't tell anyone where it's at in the trip report UNTIL THEY HAVE GONE AND FINISHED IT. it was also made abundantly clear in the discourse that followed that once the creek is finished, the location & ALL THE BETA WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE. did you even read the thread? how did you miss this? in retrospect, i shouldn't have ever written that report. it has caused so much whining ... & practically zero excitement that there's actually something new & cool for EVERYONE just around the corner. i thought maybe people could enjoy the write-up, the beautiful photos that ben took, & appreciate/respect the fact that it is still in first-descent status(hence no location beta) -- guess i was wrong.

"secret canal": this "run" is ENTIRELY on private ranch. start to finish. the water, the banks, the road, the off-road drive-in, the take-out, the grass, & the dirt are all NOT YOURS. YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO BE THERE. sorry, right-to-float does not apply cuz you don't have the right to float a man-made irrigation canal through someone's ranch. for evan to have posted location of this & invited the entire mountainbuzz community would have been inappropriate & would have resulted in NO ONE getting to paddle this. evan posted in his report that he would be glad to chauffer kayakers there. i suspect neither of you guys took evan up on his offer before dissing us.

as for the water bill agenda. that's a great agenda for everyone to get behind. but lambasting me on these two issues is the wrong way to advance it.

if you would like to discuss offline, my email is toddgillman@gmail.com
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Old 03-26-2005   #5
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
dissin ???

If you read my reply it was writtin tounge in cheek!!!

It even stated NO DISRESPECT MENT...
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Old 03-26-2005   #6
Charc in = charc out
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Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
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Posts: 475
P.S. ...

to appease y'all, & to hopefully prove that i/we are not ultra-secretive territorial surf punk wannabe's (or "tao wannabes" either, for that matter) ... on monday, you will learn of a neo-classic low-volume creek that got first-d'd just last weekend. it will be complete with all the location beta, pretty pics, & even witty banter.
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Old 03-26-2005   #7
placerville, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 732
i agree it is exciting to hear of new stuff and having the prospect of a new creek to run, and i for one really appreciate the story and photos on treasure canyon, but to not tell the location just because you guys didn't "finish" it is lame. i don't think people would be rushing out to "finish" it and try to take credit away from the founders. i understand that you were put in a tough situation, as a guest having to honor the guy's requests who took you, but it is still lame in my opinion. once again, i applaud the find, and look forward to the day the pioneers feel like sharing the info. maybe whenever they "finish" it. i'm on the edge of my seat until monday! oooohh
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Old 03-26-2005   #8
Charc in = charc out
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Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
i guess the word "finish" is a bit misrepresentative. it's not just the "finishing" of it -- it's that there is a sick tributary that anyone who drives to the put-in will cross over & see.

i'm kinda in both camps -- yeah, it's lame to withhold info ((how cool is a first d really, if no one else knows about it?)) ... and on the other hand, i gotta respect the crew's wish to keep it a secret till the trib gets run. that's just the politics of first descents. it's not new business either. back when great first d's were more plentiful, the politics were every bit as gnarly. we didn't invent this shit.

& the whole comparison to surf territorialism is way off base & sophomoric. i'm not even a "local" there & i'm not tryin to keep people out. if you happen to locate it on your own & first d the tributary, then congratulations sherlock holmes, you solved the mystery. no one is gonna hunt you down & slash your tires. give that shit a rest.

personally, as i said weeks ago, i could give a shit if other people know. i have so many other "secret" plans for this summer in other parts of the country, that i don't know if i'm even gonna get down to the southern part of the state (kinda sad given the snowpack that you have down there). & besides it is in the back of nowhere. but for the true creek hunters in colo, it will be well worth the wait. 'nuff said?
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Old 03-27-2005   #9
Mad Scientist/Creeker
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 803
I couldn't believe my eyes when someone actually blindfolded his paddling partner because he didn't want him to know where they were going.
For the record no one was blindfolded and no animals were injured.
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Old 03-27-2005   #10
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 772
If it would keep people from bitching about where a run is they could stop posting articles so no one would even know these runs exist. With the complaints I wouldn't be surprised if they did stop posting anything that has a location that is "secret" because some people don't appreciate it for what it is. Be grateful that you know there is new water out there and that you can see some of the information on it even if you don't know the exact location. There are hints of where these runs are and if you really want to run them put in some work to find them, or call Evan he said he would take people. Their point is not to be like a territorial surfers, but apparently they came off that way because they didn't give every piece of information.

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