Go Back   Mountain Buzz > Whitewater Boating > Whitewater Kayaking

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-28-2005   #21
mvhyde's Avatar
Technology Partner, Littleton, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 642
Send a message via AIM to mvhyde
ffs.....<laughing here>

what he said... it is gay...so damn gay that maybe..just maybe, y'all ought to start wearing real skirts instead of boat skirts, ya freaking pooves.

get a life wieners and whiners...

mvhyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #22
El Flaco's Avatar
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1984
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,879
Hey, Goddammit- This is a Colorado Boater's forum!! If you're from some other state, or God Forbid Canada- Stay Off my Forum!!!

ok- so it's clear - I'm totally kidding, since sarcasm seems to get lost in posts around here.

I was talking to a climber friend about this, and she brought up some interesting correlations. When a climber or a group puts up a new sport route, the first bolt is usually marked with a red ribbon to signify that this is a "Project" - a visual reminder that asks other climbers to respect the author's intent to be the first to finish the climb, since they did all the work to get it ready for completion. Generally, the climbing community respects that intent and waits for the ribbon to come off.

Now, that's of course a little tougher in our (kayaker's) case, because who's to know if this creek or that drainage is a "Project"- other than on Forums such as this? I have a couple of spots in mind that I'm checking out, but I have no idea if other paddlers are looking at or have already starting cleaning that same stretch.

Further- what constitutes a project? If I spend a few hours on a topo map and see something that might go, is that now my project? To what extent do I need to commit my time and resources to getting that stretch ready / clean for boating?

In my opinion, we (as a community) should be able to recognize that, given all the information that Todd et al have given us, this is a project that we should respect as such until it's completed. It's pretty obvious that they put a great deal of work into it, and they intend to post all descriptions, hazards, and directions as soon as it's finished. I can understand why they don't want to post all the details first; there's a very gratifying feeling to being the first person to complete a new run- much like being the first person to complete an ascent in Nepal, or the first team to explore a certain cave system in Mexico.

Folks, we're not the only community that's faced this issue- we're simply just a little undeveloped in terms of our methods of dealing with it.

Question: If the Treasure guys were to post all the details in a "Projects" section of Mountainbuzz, would everyone here respect their wishes to be allowed to complete it before going to explore it ourselves? Or would those beautiful pictures get the better of us, and would we drive down to get on the creek while it flows this year to get it while it's good? My hope would be they would get the opportunity to finish it without having to keep things a secret, but I suspect there might be one or two folks out there that would unfortunately say, "Screw that, I'm going anyway". That, my friends, could unfortuately lead to localism.

Localism (especially in the way that it's harmed the surfing community) has no place in kayaking- none. Imagine if the infamously aggressive Delores boating community "closed" the Stoner section to anyone outside the valley? (Again-sarcasm, folks)

For lack of a red ribbon at every put-in, I think we have to respect the fact that the hard work of some will benefit the community as a whole because eventually we will all be made aware of these paddling opportunities. This isn't localism - it's respect among folks who are passionate about their sport. Given Todd's write-up, it's clear that they intend to give the details in time- let's be patient and wait for them to finish this project- using their posts as a "virtual" red ribbon.

In this case, and I suspect in most cases going forward, the runs in question are going to be on the upper limits of navigability (gradient, flow, etc) and only attempted only by those who've been paddling a long time & know this community well. We're probably talking less than a hundred paddlers in the state (a guess) that can tackle runs of 400+ feet per mile, and those people I'm sure understand that the Treasure crowd deserves the chance to complete this run and the other feeder creek without a horde of other boaters trying to "send" it first. We wouldn't know about it had they not spent some serious time and energy pioneering it.

Besides- I suspect that many of the folks that are squawking to get the details of Treasure probably aren't paddlers that could handle the run anyway- curiosity is a powerful emotion. Most of the paddlers I've talked to that are capable of this type of run a) know where it is already, and b) know the paddlers that involved and respect them too much to try and trump their work for the sake of getting down that run first.

I'm going to test my own theory this week and post a potential "Project" that I've found while looking at topo maps- I'd to see if anyone's already completed a descent, scouted the run, or is looking at the same area by coincidence. I'm not claiming it's "mine" at all- I haven't been able to walk the creek I'm looking at yet- but I'll at least get the info out there to see if anyone else is seeing the same thing I have.

If so, or if someone wants to help put in the work to complete the run, you can PM me and let's plan a reconnaissance mission.

El Flaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #23
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 139
Good post El Flaco....the best on this subject yet. I have nothing but respect for these guys, and anyone putting in the hard work that it takes to accomplish these adventures. They are much more skilled than I and their stories inpspire me.

Isn't that what it's all about anyway? The thrills and work involved in a new adventure? Seek and you shall find.

Good luck on your project!
ebaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #24
The next zone, .
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,200
Prakito, stirring up the pot, I love it.

Kayakers as territorial as surfers? Maybe, I went a couple of rounds over this last year and guess what everybody is territorial! Kayakers, tele skiers (I have never ran into a more territorial group in the outdoors than a group of tele skiers who assume that a pitch in National Forest is there’s to ski exclusively???!!! Well maybe fly fisherman rival tele skiers I guess the $600 waders and $1000 pole give them the right to be territorial) skaters, surfers, football players, basketball players (Phillips is from 5pts so he also can speak on this and any of us skilled enough who have laced up the shoes for a game of hoops in the fabled park down there know that it is hella territorial) hell even first graders on a playground are territorial. Any of you out there heard of Chad’s Gap up in Utah? Siccccccck hit it has turned super territorial over the past year with the last group of snowboarders who built the jump putting rocks on and salting the landing then shitting on the jump (super funny). This will never change. Get the point.

Thanks to Todd G. et al for working to find and get in those first D’s!! Shit if you want to keep them secret for a year or two do so and if gapers bitch let them – this is what they do best. Running rivers over the past 25 years in Colorado has shown me that any run or spot if it is truly a gem will become a “mainstream” within just a couple of years and that is not much time to wait for a true “gem” of Colorado whitewater.

To some of you spittin that your day was ruined by not knowing where these spots are get a life (I am not joking) and have some patience. If you spend any time at all in the boating community you will know where these “secret” spots are. Guess what boaters love to brag and they will if you buy them a few beers and give them the chance. With time in the area comes this knowledge and any boater that I know who has put in the time has the knowledge.

Again thanks to Todd et al for knocking these out!! Todd, I know of one that I have been keeping “secret” for 6-7 years up here in the Ark. Not sure if my skills are up to the task or ever will be but the section is about a mankey ¾ of a mile to a mile long and probably about 350 ft to 450 ft drop it also has about 200 cfs. Some wood would need to be cleaned hike in all the regular stuff. Let me know if you are interested and we can go up there and take a look.
Jahve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #25
Charc in = charc out
ToddG's Avatar
Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
thanks for bringing some sanity back to this thread, y'all. thanks for the invites too. i'd be honored to join in, if i can squeeze the time in! i'm pretty slammed!

funny thing about the dolores scene. i lived in t-ride some yrs ago & would surf the stampede in a sleek (yeah, it was hot shit then). the front surfing & stern squirts were phenominal. once i had moved away, i rarely got back down there. i did go back right before the first X-boats started shipping outta oak creek. i had a factory-fresh planing hull & sharp-ass chines. the guys said that the stampede was in, so we went & i had, at that time, the best surf session imagineable -- flat spins! green grinds! ... the loc-dogs made me PROMISE that i wouldn't tell anyone about it. funny thing is that these guys couldn't even surf! no disrespect, but it was almost painful watching them paddle! & besides, this place is a looong way from the front range. i felt silly about it, but i did keep my mouth shut, telling a couple friends that i would take them to a sick spot, but i wouldn't tell them where it was. over the years, i told only only a couple friends about the magic & how to get there. some of these guys hit it & then ended up calling off of work to stay and surf for extra days -- it was so good. well, i guess i've blown it now, eh? sorry.

to the kid, aaron, in SoCal ... i'll forgive your presumptuousness in your post. but one thing you should know about surfing & the surf culture: respect is earned through years of involvement & perserverence & investment. you don't just barney-up to the lineup & expect guys who have been surfing the same exact spot for years reading the weather & the ocean to give a shit about you -- that's just not how the scene works. but if you are deeply respectful & you deal with some shit on the front end, then you are ultimately invited into the fam. surfing's been around for a looong time & there's a bajillion people doing it. the protocols have been in place for a long time too. there's nothing inherently wrong with it, you just gotta play by the rules. educating yourself, decoding the protocols & learning the hard way is part of the journey. don't let the perceived attitude keep you out of the water. just find an uncrowded spot (yeah, you sacrifice quality) & learn the skills before you join in any popular lineups.

how 'bout that arizona shit y'all? if it's raining, you should be there ...

ToddG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #26
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 67
i have been climbing for 33 years and i have never heard of red ribbons on bolts. if the line looked good i would climb it. if you put the bolts up from the bottom you don't half to worry about people taking your line. i had a line i worked on for three years. no one wanted to drill on lead. besides there are lots of climbs that go with out bolts. if i see gear hanging in a crack, that is just booty.
bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #27
Caspian's Avatar
Englewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
The ribbon on a bolt is SOP. It's rare for people to poach a route with the ribbon, regardless of whether it was rap-bolted, as most are nowadays.
Join up, suckas.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Kierkegaard
Caspian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #28
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10
Hard work

You gotta respect the hard work of others, especially when you (eventually) benefit from it. When you benefit from others work and you don't contribute yourself, you're sort of free-loading. So I respect the work that goes into finding and cleaning this runs. If the first-d party wants to keep it private, that should be their right. Other people could still find the feature with the same hard work (probably less work if you consider the cleaning that might have already been done). Kudos to you for working hard.
People are bound to complain if you post something super-sick that they can't do. I think these complaints are really foreseeable. Is anyone honsetly suprised that someone complained about secretiveness here? I'm a little astonished that these posts are treated as "shockers" which need to be rebutted with profanity-laced all CAPS tirades. The aforementioned rebuttals are not the most credible way to tell somebody to grow up.
So what am I trying to say? If you've got a secet and want to keep it then go for it. If you did some hard work and want to share with boating community, wow, we should all be truly greatfull (and I think most of the community is). If you try to keep a half-secret... we might see this result and pretend to be suprised? Good work guys, I look forward to doing these someday. Those pics from AZ are impressive, pictures that good don't take themselves. Thanks.

JonS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #29
Phillips's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorasta
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 843
Hey Todd G, I agree/disagree with you about your description of the surfing protocol. I've surfed Cali, Australia, Hawaii, Fiji and Mexico and have never had problems with localism. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. For one I can hold my own and number two I'm out there with good energy looking for some waves. If someone is a dick cuz they think they own that spot, that's their own problem- I won't deal with them. If I'm in the water and I've got inside position, I'm goin. It shouldn't really matter if i'm not a local, no one has a patent on the water. This isn't Mansanto for Christ sake.

Phillips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005   #30
Charc in = charc out
ToddG's Avatar
Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
you're right. but you got something over this other kid: you know about right of way, you can stand up, etc. i got the impression that holmes had never really surfed. you don't just hit salt creek with your rented doyle & paddle out -- you'll get mauled.

i can't really speak to localism. i don't buy into it, it never really happened that much where i grew up (right coast), i was too skinny to be intimidating (still am, but i have mean tat's now!) & really, if you can surf & you understand the rules, you'll get waves. you just gotta go to a spot with the fundamental understanding & respect for how shit works.

by the way, i took your advice on the cheetoh...

ToddG is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
KAYAKERS NEEDED MajRae Whitewater Kayaking 0 05-02-2006 10:01 AM
For the Surfers (Methadone for Kayakers) Livingston Whitewater Kayaking 5 12-29-2005 08:53 AM
sea kayakers!? terranaut Whitewater Kayaking 1 06-11-2005 11:16 PM
A town built by kayakers, for kayakers Andre Spino-Smith Whitewater Kayaking 26 12-29-2004 04:37 PM
Surfers Paradise House in Golden for Rent Kozmo Whitewater Kayaking 0 01-20-2004 03:52 PM

» Classified Ads
Wavesport Project X 56

posted by rendock

Hardly used Wavesport Project X56 kayak $400 obo


posted by ShamanRx

Brand New never used 2016 XXL Crux. Has relief zipper and...


posted by jordanfrank7

I am selling my kayak to get ready for the winter season. ...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.