Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-11-2012   #71
Dwave's Avatar
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 211
A lot of interesting points and what feels like some "hate mail" out there too. The WWGP that happened in Quebec last year was nothing less than spectacular. The world's best all around kayakers in a venue boasting epic lines. If you look at other sports and how they operate, the WWGP is simpling following tradition. In World Cup ski racing (and a lot of other sports), only the best are allowed. It's not open to local community members to sign up and compete. Much of this is for safety reasons (the courses are gnarly) and because they'll never keep up. Reality. What started as invitation only last year, became a qualifier this year as events around the world provided spots for paddlers. If the kayak community had the income available that other well know sports do, it would be able to provide the funding. As it sits, ours is a community of small $$$$ and large desires. The people on the list to compete are the best in our sport. If there are others out there equally talented and ready and wish to compete in the WWGP, all they need to do is go to a qualifying event.
So where's competition whitewater kayaking headed? Is the Freestyle World Championships really it? Do moves in a manicured and completely controlled playspot define the world of freestyle? Does Sickline define the downriver race component? Our sport has progressed exponentially in the past decade and it looks like it's going to continue to do this for sometime to come. The level of athleticism out there, the commitment to opening up moves on new lines, and to go harder and bigger seems to grow each season. If you look at what's happening on the rivers around the world, the WWGP is simply offering a place to showcase this talent and provide a different location with the best athletes pushing these limits. Yes the true essence of paddling rivers is exploration yet this could never be a competition. It's the soul and lifeblood of who we are as kayakers and should never be put on a competition platform. That's why the WWGP changes show off exotic locations i.e. get out there and explore.
I support the WWGP wholeheartedly and will continue to give up $$$ in this endeavor. We're not funding a bunch of paddler's vacations. We're supporting a fledgling event that is the future of competitive whitewater kayaking. It's visionary...and it rips.

To air is human, to get big air divine.
Dwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012   #72
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
Future of competitive kayaking. They don't even have a freestyle venue in chile. are you saying its straight racing that's the future? Well we already have these America that support the local community. It's visionary to go big, unrealistic that none of them have jobs to pay for the cameras them self! Unrealistic without a good business model, unrealistic location, Due to traveling, I'm pretty sure they won't be racing down virgin whitewater to say the least. Ei, No exploring. A event that only brings together 30 people is Sad i had that many at the quake race....

That's great they show off exotic locations. Woohoo you want a award? You're right your not funding their vacation your funding there cameras, and airline tickets for non competitors. Somebody's really thinking on that one. Kiss my ass. Wwgp is full of shit. Selfish shit. Do yourself a favor and buy Doug's book "Laugh of the Water Nymph"

caspermike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012   #73
mdignan's Avatar
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 87
I don't mind donating $10 to the Grand Prix because I thoroughly enjoyed the footage from last year and will enjoy it this year if it happens. I'm thinking solely about my entertainment and not about promoting the sport or anything that might be bigger picture.

With that said, I think this is a great debate and can certainly understand those who don't want to support it. But that's the great thing, if you want to support it, then go ahead, otherwise send your money elsewhere.
mdignan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012   #74
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 403
Wow after a couple of months of of this rafter forum, there is actually talk of kayaking, not just kayaking but the best kayakers in the world up against the best WW in the world. Must be the Whitewater Grand Prix! If you DON'T donate $10 to this then you are against all that is badass in kayaking. C Mike, a race on Big Timber is not 1/10th as badass as the WWGP.

This is by far the best showcase of WW kayaking in the world. An entirely new level of kayaking. Check out last years updates from Bomb Flow if you have any doubts. The North Fork Race which was just a qualifier for this and was the most intense WW race I have ever seen, once again 10X as badass as a Big Timber race.

I bought a $120 T Shirt because even though some of my close bro's were in the race I still cant get a WWGP shirt. You probably are not at the $120 level but your $10 will pay back huge in the sport. AW is great for conservation and i fully support them, but AW has completely abandoned competitive kayaking.

So right now every one of you people who love kayaking, who love the stoke of WW video's and who have watched Bomb Flow video's for free, have an obligation to give $10. That's $10 for 12 video's of daily updates. This competition has 12 Competitions and truly determines "the best all-around kayaker in the world". That's less than $1 per episode. Step up my friends and watch kayaking blossom into the future. Best 10 bucks you ever spent, 2 weeks of daily, intense nail-biting footage of the best in the world up against eachother.

Love this sport? Then at least give $10 to make its greatest showcase happen. Less than 2 pints at your local pub and you get 14 days of epic footage of the best kayakers in the world.
craporadon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012   #75
GWS, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 133
Like doublet said, it's all about your values. I personally don't care too much for comeptitions. Little white race, badass and lots of fun. North fork race, badass, lots of fun, too bad it was "invitation only" style. I was there for them both, it was a good time checking out the scene, and I wouldn't be against going in the future. If there were overnighters in cali running, or if the south salmon was really high, I probably would have been there instead. Sure, this competition is going to be super badass, and the internet will certainly become more clogged with high def footage of the really good kayakers who were invited or qualified for the event going really huge, on and off the river. Do I really, deep down, care? Not really. Am I going to give them money? Never, because Tribe's philosophy of why this kayaking event is so badass is not consistent with my view of a badass kayaking event. Contrary to what craporadon says, even though I would never in a million years donate $10, I am for all that is badass in kayaking. Trust me. Also, I like that on the most significant kayaking trips of my life, there haven't been other groups around! I like that there aren't many kayakers, that the rest of the world can't tell the difference between the Grand Canyon of the Colorado and the Grand Canyon of the Stikine. I don't give a rats ass if kayaking gets more "exposure." If they want to have their competition, that's cool, but it's a little obnoxious that they post on the internet asking for donations to front a huge bill, at the last minute, two months before the event. If it's something they believe is viable and they have faith in the cause, come up with a buisness model, take out a loan, take some risk, and fund it yourself!
Shitouta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012   #76
KSC's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
This is the first interesting thread on the Buzz since that thing about lame Kokatat dry suit colors. As such, I’ll risk Dave Frank calling me a pussy, Tom insulting my manhood, and Austin burning my t-shirt collection to respond seriously. After reading through this thread, I find myself feeling disappointed in some of what’s expressed here.

My first disappoint is the great deal of violent communication being employed in this discussion. I know it’s mountainbuzz, but this is actually a worthwhile topic. Why must one start the expression of one’s thoughts and opinions by saying, in a matter of words, “you’re an idiot” or complete it with “you got a problem with that then bring it on.” There are valid points on both sides. Why can’t we acknowledge what others have said in a nonviolent manner? In fairness, many people have, but the underlying current of aggression is distressing.

My second disappoint is the lack of a sense of community. There’s a frequent usage of the word “they” as an accusatory pronoun. “They” just want to take our money to travel. “They” just want to party on our dime. “They” just want to use us to buy fancy new video equipment. “They” don’t represent the soul of kayaking. “They” are an exclusive group. “They” think contests are too important. Is it just a myth that whitewater boaters form a unique community of people who confer mutual respect, trust, and intimacy by the bond of their passion? Or is it just a group like any other that likes to chat up their hobby with a fellow hobbyist, but it doesn’t go much beyond that. I'm not sure, but if you believe the former, then I would ask what it means to be part of a community. More on this as we move into the points that I’ve heard in the discussion.

One theme is, does the WWGP help promote and expand the sport of kayaking. I believe this is a bit of a straw man argument when it comes to answering the question of is WWGP a worthy event and is it worth donating money to. I tend to agree with Tyson, that I rather like the sport sized the way it is. While I see the benefit of growth for people trying to profit financially from the sport, overall I suspect growing to the size of say, the ski industry, would likely have a deleterious effect on me and other nonprofessional participates. Regardless, I do suspect that the WWGP has the capacity to increase the exposure of the sport if that’s your goal, but it’s impossible to say that as fact. I’m open to hearing counterexamples, but from what I know of the history of other sports, exhibiting the high or “extreme” end of the sports tends to increase participation and recognition. I think about the skateboard industry and how for a while the competitions were guys rolling down gentle slopes and balancing on one foot or standing on their head. Then a group of brash surfers started breaking into backyards and practicing audacious tricks in the bowls of empty pools, turned the sport in an entirely different direction and it blew up. I think you could say something similar about the trajectory of snowboarding.

The value that I see in WWGP is what Dwave expressed very well. It’s the ultimate competition that brings together the best athletes in the world and allows them to compete against each other in a multidisciplinary format that represents the cutting edge of the sport and truly demonstrates their talents. Not only is it badass, but it’s bound to help the progression of the sport.

There are several arguments I’ve heard against such a competition. One is that people believe WWGP has only allowed a small clique of boaters to participate and doesn’t really represent the best boaters in the world. I would agree that it would be better if they made their selection process more transparent. It sounds like they’re working toward that with qualifying races and video applications. I did notice the absence of many exceptional “older” boaters at the competition last year, people like Steve Fisher, EJ. I’m not sure if that’s by design or simply a function of availability/interest. However, it did seem to represent a large cross section of boaters that I know of as being some of the best in the world, and as far as I know, it exceeded that in regard to any other event I’m aware of. While I’m sure they’re all friendly, I don’t know that Dane Jackson or Bryan Kirk is part of the same “clique” as Rush Sturges or EG. Am I wrong about that? Who’s being unfairly excluded?

In fact, this is one of the primary reasons I see the WWGP as such a worthwhile event. There are some really cool grassroots races that have developed recently that showcase the talent of modern boaters. The NF Payette and Little White are good examples. But there’s not an event equivalent to a “World Cup” or “Olympics”, where all the best boaters in the world all converge to compete against each other.

The other point I’ve heard on this theme, is that competitions like this take away from the soul of kayaking. People define the soul of kayaking differently. I agree with some others that the ultimate discipline of kayaking is expedition boating through harsh environments and difficult whitewater. Others have expressed that the soul lies in introducing new people to the sport and watching them find their first roll and stern squirt. All these aspects are not mutually exclusive and in fact I believe the existence of each component enhances the whole. In my own little amateur enthusiast late season world of Colorado kayaking, I love rolling into Gore Canyon at dusk with Brian pointing out wildlife to me and cruising through in peace and solitude. But I also love butterflies in my stomach at the start of the Gore race and hearing the cheers of spectators on the banks at Tunnel hoping for a chance to watch me get throttled. Oh, sure there’s nothing I love more than exploring a new remote run, unguided, in a foreign place, with boating friends that I trust. But the fact that they all coexist make kayaking that much sweeter to me. So I don’t agree with the argument that just because one discipline of kayaking is more valuable to you than another, that there’s not value in them all coexisting. I also question what it means to be a community when your favoritism towards one discipline excludes the validity of others.

Some people merely take exception, not with the event, but how they’re proposing to fund it. I understand that. As I said in my previous post, my first reaction to the $100k figure was that it seemed outrageously high. My interpretation was similar to Leif’s, that $100k was their goal to pull off their ultimate vision, but it would still go off if less money was raised. But I like that they’re thinking big. We already have lots of shoestring budget, grassroots, amateur documented events. What’s cool about this is that it’s trying to be something bigger. I do think the WWGP organizers should make an effort to be more transparent and explicit here as well in terms of how they propose to use the money. They should tell us what they will do with any money raised if the 2012 event does fall through. Are they going to all buy new video equipment for their amusement, throw the best New Years party ever, or will the funds go toward a 2013 event? I agree with some of the points here that there are likely some ways to reduce costs by renting equipment (maybe harder in Chile?) and using existing equipment that people own. It would be useful to organizers to explain this and their long term financial strategy.

I think a lot of your opinion in this regard comes down to a matter of trust. Again, isn’t trust a fundamental characteristic of a community? I trust the event and organizers because of what they pulled off last year. It takes investment and time to build up something like this. It’s obvious that the last event came off because people donated an enormous amount of their personal time. I’m not sure how sustainable that level of volunteerism is. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pay somebody if they’re creating a professional quality production. The fact that they put together what they did last year and that it was the very first WWGP and the very first event of its kind in kayaking really impressed me. This is an event in its intimacy that’s started off with a bang.

I’m not going to throw 100s of dollars their way, but it’s more than worth it for me to buy a case of PBR for the takeout next time instead of some fancy Durango beer and toss the $10 I saved to the WWGP. In fact, seeing WWGP go off is worth more to me than that small “sacrifice”. There are some dirtbag kayakers out there, but most of the kayakers I see are rolling around in new Tundras with custom racks, are dropping $50 a day just on gas to go boating or skiing. I’m not sure I see $10 as a huge sacrifice. But I do understand not wanting to spend it if you don’t see value in the event.

I understand others simply take umbrage with the business model. They have pointed out that it’s not sustainable or there are better ways to use market forces to raise the money. I’m just speculating, but my impression is they screwed up this year. I think they thought they were going to get more sponsorship money after a successful event last year and it didn’t come through. Now they’re trying to figure out a way to salvage their plans for this year. The model is really not all that new or foreign. NPR and PBS have survived on this model for years. Most charitable organizations use a very similar model as have many software companies. There’s even a cafe in Denver that uses this model. It’s a different way of paying for a service, arguably more egalitarian based on means, but ultimately it’s a way to pay for something that you value. I’d rather have their videos available for free and donate a $ amt of my choice than pay for it on iTunes to access it (anyway, Apple doesn’t need a cut of the profits). Since when is this a choice between donating to AW or WWGP? These guys are pulling something together that nobody has been able to do and that’s why it’s worth supporting. It’s not a contest about who has the most worthy cause in the world. I don’t understand the aggressive and defensive responses to this request. They’re not calling you a douchebag if you don’t donate money. They’re merely saying they need financial support this year to pull off the contest and are requesting help if you are able and value what they are doing.

If we really do have some unique whitewater community, then isn’t this the kind of model that can benefit from that. Because there’s a sense of trust and camaraderie, we can all pitch in to save a worthwhile event. It doesn’t matter if we benefit directly from it. What’s important is that it’s a positive event for the kayaking community as a whole.

P.S. Was there an implication above that Jacobi is getting married?? That would really fuck with my mind. Has he completed that bike/boat 50/50 thing yet?
KSC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012   #77
doesn't need a fake name
leif's Avatar
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 481
Ksc, very well said. Thank you for restoring a lot of the dignity of this thread. I want to address one little point in there. You mentioned that you like the current size of the sport. I can respect that. However, keep in mind that if the sort were to grow, boats would get cheaper and better designed, drytops would get drier, and some nutjob out there would probably end up inventing some more efficient strokes or rolls. Having a larger number of kayakers has benefits as well as drawbacks, and not just benefits to the pros.

Similarly, ben, the wwgp may not be your style, but imagine if you could get your solo extreme exploratory jungle expedition to the rio gjualligoh funded by a sat phone company. If kayaking had a more mainstream image, getting those sorts of sponsorships might get easier. You could call up the sat phone sales rep, show him the wwgp videos, and say "this is the sort of stuff that's possible in kayaking". If those videos look good, he might be more likely to sponsor you, allowing you to pursue your different interpretation of what kayaking should be.

Furthermore, mike is a jerk. Come at me, bro. Come at me.
leif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012   #78
GWS, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 133
Leif, I hate boating in the Jungle.
Shitouta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012   #79
Dwave's Avatar
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 211 glad you chimed in. So glad...
To air is human, to get big air divine.
Dwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012   #80
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
Whew! Just read this whole thread. Many good points. I've got experience and perspectives all over the map on this. Good luck Boyze.

I do know more than one ww company exec that thinks the big drop, super hard water exposure hurts the growth of the industry by scaring people off.

My most recent contribution to progressing the sport... just back from nine days of class 1 paddling on the San Juan with my 3 and a half year old grandson, in his Fun 1, and my 2 year old granddaughter, on the raft.

Marketing to families may be the best business model...

Phil U. is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Whitewater Grand Prix Tv show online now... triberiders Whitewater Kayaking 1 12-17-2011 01:51 AM
Now on In Between Swims - Patrick Camblin on the Whitewater Grand Prix! InBetween Swims Whitewater Kayaking 0 05-05-2011 12:10 PM
Video - Jonny Meyers Whitewater Grand Prix... DanC Whitewater Kayaking 1 05-04-2011 10:46 PM
WHITEWATER GRAND PRIX is going off!!! Bomb Flow Whitewater Kayaking 1 05-04-2011 02:10 PM
Whitewater Grand Prix hullflyer Whitewater Kayaking 0 04-29-2011 12:20 PM

» Classified Ads
2016 Dagger Nomad...

posted by atom

2016 Dagger Nomad LG Used as intended but tons of life...


posted by jordanfrank7

I am selling my kayak to get ready for the winter season. ...

Fluid Flirt (med)

posted by dlanci

Medium Fluid Flirt. Bought brand new in 2007. Great river...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.