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Old 05-27-2015   #11
Paddle_like_Hell's Avatar
Austin, Tejas
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 113
tew, I do see your point and my comment was intentionally viscous, personal, and down right scandalous. Honestly, I couldn't find the " 20 Texans want to raft Bailey or Clear Creek thread" that Cayo was referring to and that may have shed a more logical light. Feel free to link to it for me if you would.

This time of year the handful of actual TX kayakers like to get on here and piss you guys off, purely out of our jealousy for your Spring spoils, but you've gone and deflected my veiled attempt.

However, conjecture after a river fatality can be useful but it appeared to me that everyone was concerned about two key aspects of the victim: The fact she was from Texas and the fact that she was overweight. Neither of those things is a full proof indicator of her abilities in or out of a raft.

Kayaker from Austin, TX, pretty much just like being a Polar Bear in Florida
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Old 05-27-2015   #12
Paddle_like_Hell's Avatar
Austin, Tejas
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 113
Thanks Soggy, I always liked you. How's the pizza business?

Kayaker from Austin, TX, pretty much just like being a Polar Bear in Florida
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Old 05-27-2015   #13
Steamboat, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 582
Pizza? I got tired of making pizza for all you Texan fuckers. When I wasn't making pizza for the Texan fuckers I was making it for the fuckin Front Rangers, all just for the benefit of my employers' pockets (and usually some good tips, and some free pizza, of course). If anyone would like to buy me a pizza shop to continue to toss amazing pizza-pies under my own conditions, I'd be happy to (also amazing homemade ice cream!). Till then, it's commercial insurance.
That being said, as someone asked about how a death affects a rafting company, I'd assume they have a deductible to pay and their rates will go up upon renewal.

Oh and by the way- the Texan/Clear Creek reference comes from a thread about a week ago in which some "experienced" rafting guys from Texas wanted to hire a private individual to guide them down Clear Creek, provide meals and take pictures. Isn't there enough water in your rivers right now??? You guys should rejoice that you have your own runoff this year! Seriously though, scary stuff going on down there, my aunt lives in Conroe. Sending good joo-joo to all you Texas fuckers.
It's a good day to be a duck....
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Old 05-27-2015   #14
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Paddle- Death is morbid and therefore not humorous, I agree with you cayo missed the mark. To flame does not help the situation was my point. I further agree that conjecture and arm chair coaching do not help in us learn from these tragedies especial when the facts are not fully known, ie second hand or greater from the poster.
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Old 05-27-2015   #15
behind the 2nd flatiron, Colorado
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 33
300lb is 300lb I don't care where you're from.. People think this is an amusement park ride. Personal responsibility is key here if she was an adult. Call me a cold hearted bastard if you want. I'm sure lawsuits will follow and more legislation will attempt to be introduced. If I was 300lb I wouldn't be going rafting and I wouldn't let my friends/family raft either.

I feel sorry for the family for their loss. Especially because she had family present. I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.
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Old 05-27-2015   #16
Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by GroverGrover View Post
I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.
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Old 05-27-2015   #17
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,929
Doesn't it seem too soon to lay blame as the official investigation isn't even complete and public? I know the internet leads us to believe everything happens here and now but it doesn't.

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Old 05-27-2015   #18
Barton, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1984
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Joel_G View Post
Some folks have no business getting on a raft, but they do not comprehend the likelihood and consequence of the risk they are accepting by joining a commercial rafting trip. Commercial trips imply a certain level of safety that does not, in fact, exist for those unfit to participate. Just like theme parks require that you must be yay high to ride the roller coaster, the onus is on the commercial rafting companies to deny admission to those unfit to participate.
This comment is well put. If you are a guide it is your responsibility to keep your clients alive, bottom line.(not legally but thats the implied responsibility when you take this job) I think that 0% of this responsibility falls on the client. I have had 300 lb people sign up for Gore. Should they get to go because they signed the waiver?
I think some guides they find themselves in that in-between area where they don't want to hurt peoples feelings or their TL tells them to suck it up. Making this call takes experience and we all need to be more comfortable about doing it. Being a guide could mean bumping a whole party to an easier section without them realizing it and still having a great time.
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Old 05-27-2015   #19
Whitewater Repairs's Avatar
Sheridan, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 23
As a commercial guide of 14 years I can tell you that there were many situations where obese customers had signed up for a class IV trip. As a TL I would often readjust boat loads to be sure that the person of concern was paired with a very senior and conservative guide, or I would take that person myself if allowable. As a TL and manager for a large company it often fell on me to be "that guy" that had the talk with the client. Many clients were very understanding and appreciative that we were thinking of their well-being. Others would get very upset. It was never a conversation I looked forward to. There were times that we had guests that I considered to be on the borderline of whether or not we should have that talk, but at least half the time I just readjusted boat loads and took that person myself, ran in the middle of the trip, and stacked senior guides around me. Anyway, the point is to be a commercial guide you have to have a bit of an ego, and there are times you tell yourself you can get this person down the river even if they shouldn't be there. You trust enough in your experience that things will be ok, and without that bit of over-confidence things would be bad when 3 boats flip and there are twenty people in the water. That confidence is what cleans up the mess. This is a tragic loss but I don't know how you can mandate a change in the way outfitters screen guests. They may show up and say I'm not obese, and you look at them and they clearly are. It doesn't always mean that they're at a higher risk than any other guest. I would always screen the waivers of our guests before meeting them, our reservationists specifically ask in advance if there are any health conditions, they even say, "including obesity." Less than 10% of the time people are honest.

Obesity is the greatest health epidemic in the US, everyone says it. Rafting is an adventure sport and marketed as such. People have to be honest with themselves and choose the milder trip. If you haven't exercised in 20 years it's probably a good idea to stick to the beginner section in rafting or the greens on the ski hill. If you put this on the outfitters you will end up unfairly excluding people that are making responsible choices. It's unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society, haven't you noticed that we can do less and less as time goes by?
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Old 05-27-2015   #20
God Amongst Men
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Phuoc My, Da Nang, THE 'NAM
Paddling Since: 1845
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,988
Sad to hear I fear this summer may bring more if the water does rise. Condolences to the family.

Im not wading into the muck but we can all start agreeing to spell it right? Its "tongue-in-cheek"......

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