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Old 10-04-2007   #31
Chip's Avatar
SE, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,098
I won't give up running whitewater, period.

There's a lot you can do. We plunked $18k (less a $3k state grant) into solar panels and solar shingles with a grid connection, so whatever power we don't use is available to other power customers. We also got a Honda Insight Hybrid (60 mpg) that's a sweet little zoomer. Switched our water and house heating to demand water heaters and radiants, with the electric bill last January only 26% of that the January before. And we use about 1/4 of the propane that the previous owners of this house did: one refill (about 350 gal.) per year.

Figuring it out has been a lot of fun, and are we suffering? No way!

I can fit a Pack Cat and minimal boating gear in the wee hybrid, but a roofrack isn't an option, nor will it pull a trailer. So I've been on a campaign to reduce the size and weight of all my river gear.

For example, for long drives a breakdown frame and cat tubes that will fit inside a compact vehicle are a lot less consumptive than a big fat raft (inflated) on a trailer towed by a GMC Yukon at 10 mpg (or less).

An old-style Grand Canyon trip is based on surplus military hardware that weighs a ton. Given some thinking, it's not hard to put together a trip with the same level of comfort and food at 1/4 the weight

Which in turn means that the transport vehicles and the rest of the support/consumption can be downscaled accordingly.

So, when I see a bunch of Suburbans and hogmonster pickups at a put-in, I wonder why people who must have backpacked revert to such old-boy technology for running rivers?

Let's float, not sink. Light is right.

yrs, Chip

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Old 10-05-2007   #32
CUkayakGirl's Avatar
303, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 301
SJ wrote:
Cukayakgirl. I call BS on most of your Suburbia rant.4 hours a day? Don't be a clueless hater you'll end up a Bush Christian
Oh ok so I was off by an hour for CO...but think about car driven cities like LA, I know in the 80's they were spending 3-4 hours in traffic a day.

Please read the facts before you call BS

A little something I put together for you and Count, because he thinks I am full of shit too!

Read and analyzed from the DCOG website:

A Vision for the Denver Region (Board of Directors of Colorado, 2005), quantifies the traffic flow today and in the year 2030 in order to provide explicit quantified information on our growing traffic problems. The document explains that by the year 2030 the population of the Denver area will reach approximately four million; creating 800,000 new jobs. The population and jobs will primarily spread outward creating 300 square miles of newly developed land. In the year 2030, the city’s congestion percentage will out number the population growth percentage drastically. As a result, the vehicle miles traveled per person per year will increase by fifty-three percent. Today there are over 1460 lane miles of congested road around the state, which adds up to about three hours a day of traffic jams per person using those roads. By the year 2030, the state will construct 2666 lane miles of road, and despite the increase in lane miles, predicts about five hours of heavy traffic driving a day.

I am just thinking people need to open thier eyes. When is the last time you got stuck in traffic? maybe skiing? Ok, I bet i have spend more time in traffic driving to ski than I have actually skiing? Do you find yourself planning around traffic? Leaving early, leaving later? We have become so immune to the problem that we dont even see it as a problem anymore.

You really think this is BS?
Shit, dude!

"I would lick it up if it weren't all glassified and on concrete"
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Old 10-05-2007   #33
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
come on man don't give the chick shit, shes half true about all of that. i personally hate driving anywhere close to denver, any time. traffic sucks because when you have so many drivers recks are bound to happen and what do you know you get stuck in traffic. 24 hours a day i sleep at least 8 hours night and work 9 hour days. if i spent 1 hour in my car a day i would shoot my shelf, takes away from the smoking time.

plus it only takes me 20 minutes to get on our ski area and 3 minutes to get to work : ) thats why i like wyoming!
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Old 10-05-2007   #34
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 498
Cukg. First of all this is just good natured to me But when you play extremely loose with the facts. And say thing like get your facts straight well I have to laugh at you not with you. You were not off by an hour you were totally wrong. The figures are 4 hours a week not four hours a day. And that's drive time not stuck in traffic. You completely misused stats to paint a wrong picture.

Now I realize that this is emotional issue for the far left just like the far right and not scientific. But when you spin facts like Limbaugh I am going to call you on it just like I call a neoconn on their idiocy on this issue. sj
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Old 10-05-2007   #35
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 498
Hey cukayakgirl. I obviously don't beleive your sources anymore than I beleive the oil funded Global Warming Studies. But am willing to read about your angel. Here's some real life facts my neighborhood. One freind has to go to Boulder every Friday. Takes an hour on a good day and an hour and a half on a bad. Thats from Quebec and C-470 to The Longmont Turnpike leaving at 8 pm and 5 pm. So on a bad day thats 3 hours to traverse the whole city up and back. So this guy would be on the high end of what people commute in Denver and on a bad day he only hits 3 hours.(he works at home 4 days). So my point if a person can traverse the whole metro area in 3 hours on a bad day. How can the average be 3 hours. A lot of the burbs are to the S and E and most of the Jobs are in the Tech Center.

I am not saying there is not a problem. I am saying using fuzzy math dosen't help the cause. And you realize you called some one who drives a 30mpg car and has been on wind power since it was offered. The biggest problem. Now how about how the house's are not fit for the Climate and what of these social ills I am suffering. sj
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Old 10-05-2007   #36
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 393
CUKG might be a little overzealous with the numbers she is throwing out (insert Boulder joke here), but the fact remains that better land planning and increased density can have extremely positive environmental impacts. The green building & new-urbanist trends are certainly 'low hanging fruit' when it comes to reducing our environmental impacts - mostly because they make financial sense for the consumer.

Props to everyone who is doing something; whether it is biking to work, going off the grid or downsizing their vehicles.
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Old 10-05-2007   #37
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 498
Thanks Doublet it's all in good fun. The sentiment is right. Chip I would like to hear more about your solar. If i read it right you still need gas for something. I was hoping to power in floor radiant with solar. And of course a hot tub for our old bones. Is this possible ? do you have links. sj
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Old 10-05-2007   #38
shortbus's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 128
my contribution

CU girls first post makes good sense and is prompting me to relay my thoughts.
I currently live in a rural setting, 15 miles from town. I love it, but i spend an hour of my life every day driving into town and back home again, plus you have to plan for your trip into town and extra activities, (like boating) that you might do after work or whatever.

6 months ago, I was given the opportunity to have a 1,000 sq ft house for free, provided I move it off the property to make room for an enormous house. realize that nothing is ever free, it cost about 16k to move it and 25 k to make it livable and 40k for a lot in town, but now I have a recycled home, on 1.2 acres in town,five minutes from stores and my business. Fortunately, because i have been in the construction trade for awhile, I could do the work myself. And I took the opportunity to do some retrofitting, like installing a tankless water heater, insulating the crawlspace, buying a washer/ dryer combo that costs $9 a year to operate, using recycled wood for a deck, and hooking up the electricity in such a way that it would accept wind or solar power down the road when I can afford it. also, Instead of hauling away all the fill from the foundation hole, I made it into berms for landscaping, which will be xeriscaped. Also, had i not taken this house, It would have been torn down and hauled to the landfill, taking up space and fuels for hauling it off.

I realize that this was a unique opportunity, but there are lots of opportunities out there if one keeps their eyes open and networks.

None of this is that revolutionary, but you would be surprised how a minor change in your lifestyle can impact your contribution to the cause. I spent less than 100k and saved an otherwise beautiful home from being wasted and I will have a lot more time for fun stuff.
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Old 10-05-2007   #39
Chip's Avatar
SE, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,098
solar power

We added an enclosed porch to an older house and roofed it with solar shingles (24 strips/ peak 408 watts). Also put up PV panels (6 BP 150 watt/peak 900 watts) on a manually adjustable rack. At about 1300 watts peak, it's a small system. At this time of year it generates about 250 kwh per month (about half of what we consume). The inverter is a Sunnyboy 1800 watt grid-tie, that shunts whatever power we don't use into the grid (no batteries). A digital meter keeps track of use, what we generate, and what goes to the grid.

For waterheating in general it pays to install a demand-type heater. We got a Bosch AquaStar (LP gas) for the whole house and an Eemax electric demand water heater for the kitchen sink, so there's instant hot water for dishes, etc. The Eemax is small but it needs a 240v 45amp breaker and #8 wire.

I don't know much about in-floor radiant heat.

yrs, Chip
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Old 10-05-2007   #40
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 128
nice Chip, if I may ask, how much did that inverter and the panel setup run you? Also, is your home on a 100amp service? or is it 200 amp? I decided to go with a a Rinnai tankless heater for the whole house. As far as radiant heating goes, my folks built a pretty big home a couple years ago,( 3,500) sq ft??? anyway the entire house is heated with in-floor radiant heat, which is heated with a Woodmaster wood furnace that sits out behind the house 100 ft. Also,the floor is the water storage vessel, so they don't have a huge tank. in the summer months when the furnace isn't running, they have a LP tankless heater. They have to cut wood for the furnace, but they cut it into 4 foot rounds and only have to feed it about every three days or so. Thanks for the insight. Andy

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