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Old 11-05-2004   #61
Caspian's Avatar
Englewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
Since this is the most viewed thread by far right now, and clearly folks need to boat...Bailey is runnable again -- anyone wanna go creekin' Friday after lunch?

Join up, suckas.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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Old 11-05-2004   #62
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 55
100,000 dead. HOW MANY MORE???


you are one of those people i just dont get. you have that right, and vise versa. but come on man. this is an example of a person who only sees things in black and white, right and wrong. the world is a crazy messy place. it is not cut and dry nor is it static. and when there is movement things are not so simple. and if you position yourself assuming that you are always on the right side of the line, and adopt the attitude, that you are either with us or against us, you will always find your side has far fewer folks on it.

you need to get out, make a connection with the other members of this global community. travel. i dont mean on a tour or from the window of the hilton. by yourself, navigate downtown cairo, ask for help, get lost, experience your smallness, and experience their willingness to help you out. get out of the little box you have erected around yourself.

be careful about how you throw the word compassion around. those coming from a stance of superiority have no idea what it means. compassion and pity mean two very different things.

i read you story, BTY, all i could picture was this father shouting at his little boy. that conjures up a real heart warming image. and dont give me a line about toughening him up. so read the one below, take time and digest those numbers.

here is my final thought(especially for all the christians in the house):
If we are indeed the most powerful nation on this planet, shouldnt we LOVE THINE ENEMY. this does not mean turn and walk away as a coward, nor does it mean lash out because we lack the discipline for intellect and persistence to show true love. jesus did not pass judgment on any one, he only loved them. if christians thought and acted this way, there would be more christians out there.

how little of us. we get punched in the nose, and start swinging at anything that moves.

this is NOT about partisanship, ill bet most people on this forum are independents.

set your emotions aside for just one minute. critically analyze the situation. that means question everything, for you know nothing.

and back to your tear jerking story, that was a prime example of divert and deny. REMEMBER why we were told we were going into iraq? tell me, or has your feeble mind been so brainwashed to have erased that minor detail? tell me. how does daddy explain that to little jimmy? how does daddy justify killing 100,000 iraqis because they wanted to be free?

successful revolutions come from within.
by the logic of your little story, we should have killed 100,000 people in every developing nation in this world.

The war on Iraq has made moral cowards of us all

More than 100,000 Iraqis have died - and where is our shame and rage?

Scott Ritter
Monday November 1, 2004
The Guardian

The full scale of the human cost already paid for the war on Iraq is only now becoming clear. Last week's estimate by investigators, using credible methodology, that more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians - most of them women and children - have died since the US-led invasion is a profound moral indictment of our countries. The US and British governments quickly moved to cast doubt on the Lancet medical journal findings, citing other studies. These mainly media-based reports put the number of Iraqi civilian deaths at about 15,000 - although the basis for such an endorsement is unclear, since neither the US nor the UK admits to collecting data on Iraqi civilian casualties.

Civilian deaths have always been a tragic reality of modern war. But the conflict in Iraq was supposed to be different - US and British forces were dispatched to liberate the Iraqi people, not impose their own tyranny of violence.

Reading accounts of the US-led invasion, one is struck by the constant, almost casual, reference to civilian deaths. Soldiers and marines speak of destroying hundreds, if not thousands, of vehicles that turned out to be crammed with civilians. US marines acknowledged in the aftermath of the early, bloody battle for Nassiriya that their artillery and air power had pounded civilian areas in a blind effort to suppress insurgents thought to be holed up in the city. The infamous "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad produced hundreds of deaths, as did the 3rd Infantry Division's "Thunder Run", an armoured thrust in Baghdad that slaughtered everyone in its path.

It is true that, with only a few exceptions, civilians who died as a result of ground combat were not deliberately targeted, but were caught up in the machinery of modern warfare. But when the same claim is made about civilians killed in aerial attacks (the Lancet study estimates that most of civilian deaths were the result of air attacks), the comparison quickly falls apart. Helicopter engagements apart, most aerial bombardment is deliberate and pre-planned. US and British military officials like to brag about the accuracy of the "precision" munitions used in these strikes, claiming this makes the kind of modern warfare practised by the coalition in Iraq the most humanitarian in history.

But there is nothing humanitarian about explosives once they detonate near civilians, or about a bomb guided to the wrong target. Dozens of civilians were killed during the vain effort to eliminate Saddam Hussein with "pinpoint" air strikes, and hundreds have perished in the campaign to eliminate alleged terrorist targets in Falluja. A "smart bomb" is only as good as the data used to direct it. And the abysmal quality of the intelligence used has made the smartest of bombs just as dumb and indiscriminate as those, for example, dropped during the second world war.

The fact that most bombing missions in Iraq today are pre-planned, with targets allegedly carefully vetted, further indicts those who wage this war in the name of freedom. If these targets are so precise, then those selecting them cannot escape the fact that they are deliberately targeting innocent civilians at the same time as they seek to destroy their intended foe. Some would dismiss these civilians as "collateral damage". But we must keep in mind that the British and US governments made a deliberate decision to enter into a conflict of their choosing, not one that was thrust upon them. We invaded Iraq to free Iraqis from a dictator who, by some accounts, oversaw the killing of about 300,000 of his subjects - although no one has been able to verify more than a small fraction of the figure. If it is correct, it took Saddam decades to reach such a horrific statistic. The US and UK have, it seems, reached a third of that total in just 18 months.

Meanwhile, the latest scandal over missing nuclear-related high explosives in Iraq (traced and controlled under the UN inspections regime) only underscores the utter deceitfulness of the Bush-Blair argument for the war. Having claimed the uncertainty surrounding Iraq's WMD capability constituted a threat that could not go unchallenged in a post-9/11 world, one would have expected the two leaders to insist on a military course of action that brought under immediate coalition control any aspect of potential WMD capability, especially relating to any possible nuclear threat. That the US military did not have a dedicated force to locate and neutralise these explosives underscores the fact that both Bush and Blair knew that there was no threat from Iraq, nuclear or otherwise.

Of course, the US and Britain have a history of turning a blind eye to Iraqi suffering when it suits their political purposes. During the 1990s, hundreds of thousands are estimated by the UN to have died as a result of sanctions. Throughout that time, the US and the UK maintained the fiction that this was the fault of Saddam Hussein, who refused to give up his WMD. We now know that Saddam had disarmed and those deaths were the responsibility of the US and Britain, which refused to lift sanctions.

There are many culpable individuals and organisations history will hold to account for the war - from deceitful politicians and journalists to acquiescent military professionals and silent citizens of the world's democracies. As the evidence has piled up confirming what I and others had reported - that Iraq was already disarmed by the late 1990s - my personal vote for one of the most culpable individuals would go to Hans Blix, who headed the UN weapons inspection team in the run-up to war. He had the power if not to prevent, at least to forestall a war with Iraq. Blix knew that Iraq was disarmed, but in his mealy-mouthed testimony to the UN security council helped provide fodder for war. His failure to stand up to the lies used by Bush and Blair to sell the Iraq war must brand him a moral and intellectual coward.

But we all are moral cowards when it comes to Iraq. Our collective inability to summon the requisite shame and rage when confronted by an estimate of 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians in the prosecution of an illegal and unjust war not only condemns us, but adds credibility to those who oppose us. The fact that a criminal such as Osama bin Laden can broadcast a videotape on the eve of the US presidential election in which his message is viewed by many around the world as a sober argument in support of his cause is the harshest indictment of the failure of the US and Britain to implement sound policy in the aftermath of 9/11. The death of 3,000 civilians on that horrible day represented a tragedy of huge proportions. Our continued indifference to a war that has slaughtered so many Iraqi civilians, and will continue to kill more, is in many ways an even greater tragedy: not only in terms of scale, but also because these deaths were inflicted by our own hand in the course of an action that has no defence.

ยท Scott Ritter was a senior UN weapons inspector in Iraq between 1991 and 1998 and is the author of Frontier Justice: Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Bushwhacking of America

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Old 11-05-2004   #63
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 27
So you are basically saying that the meek will enherit the earth. Good, we can just push them down and take it from them. Just a little joke. I hear what you are saying but the people that we fighting against dont play by the rules and they dont really care if we turn the other cheek. Just ask Spain.
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Old 11-05-2004   #64
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 94
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 68
zoinks that's kooky...

Your "consistency" is unwavering. The very blind faith and "kook" mentality you accuse the dem-leaning folks on this board of, is oozing out of every one of your posts. If you don't see the ridiculousness of your story, please read it a few more times. That story might have been applicable to the Nazis but not Saddam. To make it applicable have the father and son recieve a threatening phone call from the neighbor and then decide to go hop his fence and look through the back windows to see him abusing his family. In no way do I sympathize with Sadaam, condone any of his actions or wish they were continuing. BUT, you need to be ready to back your rhetoric up and go "defend" our nation in a lot of other locations if you follow your logic to it's natural conclusion. How does the Sudan sound?

I am not pushing any conspiracy theories. I haven't done that once if you look back through my posts. My point has been that Bush has not practiced any of the Christian rhetoric he is so fond of pushing. It was a brilliant marketing scheme and probably helped him work through his past dependencies but it isn't real. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Old 11-05-2004   #65
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 94
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 68

the above was for the benefit of H2OBoy. I have voted for the Republican party in every election I was able to vote in until Little George was on the ticket. I lived in Dallas for a while and I know the respect the educated folks there have for him. It doesn't extend much past their state-pride.
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Old 11-05-2004   #66
Spits Hot Fire
N. Cascades, Washington
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 978
Sorry it took so long to reply H2"blow"(original huh?) but your wife wouldn't get her lips off my balls last night, god, she can suck the chrome off a trailor hitch. I dont have much time either to repeat what everyone else has already said to your slow ass, I'm on my way up to buffalo pass to do some sleddin and riding so have fun rubbin one out while I'm passin your girl round the hot tub tonight. cheers, ladies.
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Old 11-05-2004   #67
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
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Posts: 2,906
Hey Flowtorch -

Why don't you take that crap out into the woods with you with you and leave it there. We don't need high school-mentality personal attacks like that here and its a bummer to see you spouting it.

Frenchy - it you don't mind, please delete Flowtorch's post and this one too.


Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 11-05-2004   #68
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 27
Its OK Andy, I know where she was and she has morals anyways. Even if it was true I doubt there is enough Viagra for him to even perform up to the standards she has become accustom to. I would guess she would leave laughing hysterically.

Frenchy, leave it up, it displays the tactics that he would resort too when he has nothing intelligent to say. This is exactly what I have been talking about.

Just one request for flowtorch, put your name to your comments so if I do end up meeting you I will know and I will deal with your comments then. I wont be doing anything but I bet she will whoop your ass and if she doesn't I certainly will. Call me if you want to get together.

Bryon Tracy
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Old 11-05-2004   #69
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
Toxic wrote:

I don't see what GW is doing, as a bad thing. The people there want to be free, right? Don't they deserve to be free? Can they be free under a dictator? Can they be free if they get to vote but are directed to vote for specific candidate and the only candidate? If they want to be free, and they do, who is going to help them, France, Germany, Canada.

Toxic---First off, thanks for listening to what I said to you.
Secondly--let's try to answer these questions you have listed.

Of course the people of Iraq want to be free. Yes, they deserve to be free. They probably don't have true freedom under dictatorship. (BTW-Do Americans have true freedom?? if so I am still confused as to why Tommy Chong is in jail!!)

Who will help them? Shouldn't they help themselves. Didn't we, the Americans, stand up and fight against the British during the American revolution? Or did the French come and start it first because they felt we needed to be free?? I am not a history buff but I think the American people stood up and fought for themselves and then received some help from others...please correct me if my lack of solid history isn't correct. THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION!!

As ESP put it so well. Successful revolutions come from within!

Toxic,(When I ask you this question at no point am I all up in your face)How do you know what the Iraqi people want?? They might not of liked Saddam but at least they didn't have U.S. bombs killing them everyday!

How do you know what the terrorists stand for? You talk about them like you have seen a personal interview with one of them. I don't even try to understand what it is they are thinking. Oh what the hell...I'll give it a try. I do have this sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with THEIR religion??? HMMMMMMM! Jihad, maybe???

So if what the terrorists are doing is in the name of THEIR God then that must mean that they think they are right. But wait a minute...THE U.S. is the RIGHT way!! No they are right, we are we are right, they are wrong. DO YOU SEE WHAT I AM GETTING AT? Its a never ending cycle! Until we let go of this attitude we will repeat what we have been doing since the beginning of human civilization. This is what I keep going back to, toxic. THIS ATTITUDE OF I AM RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG DOES NOT WORK! Look back at the history of humans and you will see this is a common reason as to why most conflicts start. When will we learn????

I never said you were wrong Toxic, I never said I am right...I simply have made a suggestion as to what might be the better solution.
Letting go of this attitude might also help humans in their personal relationships. It could perhaps mend long time feuds by letting go of the feeling of "I AM RIGHT! DAMMIT I AM RIGHT, I DON"T NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO THEM, THEY NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO ME...I AM RIGHT!" Just think about it, just let it sit there for awhile and you might see that there is truth to this.

Is war ever the answer??? I don't need to answer this question. But I do want to add that one of the most powerful men ever on this earth defeated and freed his people without using a lick of violence. His name is Gandhi!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read about or see the movie about how he defeated the British without using violence...It's quite the amazing story. It's an example of what humans are capable of doing. To your story about the little boy asking why were are at war: That is just a prime example of .."WE ARE OUR FATHERS SINS!!!!!!"I hope someday that the answer all children get is more like what Gandhi taught.

If America spent 1/8 of what they are spending on military and put it back into protecting our borders we would probably be a lot safer from future terrorist attacks. I agree we need to stop terrorism, but I don't think what Bush is doing is the right way to go about it. With those 100,000 Iraqi people that have been killed you should mulitply that by 2 and that is probably how many terrorists are being breed right NOW to hate America! That is merely an assumption. I assume this because if a U.S. bomb killed my brother and father I would probably hate the U.S. and join Osama in his Jihad fight against the infadels!

Toxic, Like I said before in my previous post. I really do respect you for your ability to stand up for what you believe in. At no point do I think I am right and you are wrong. Just ponder the idea that maybe Bush isn't the right way. That just maybe we aren't going about this terrorism thing in the right way. Just ponder it. Look past what your social and family heredity have taught you. Look past what your religion has taught you, look past what your parents taught you, look past what your community taught you, look past what you saw on T.V. Think about trying to look past it might be refreshing! There is a bigger picture out there. BTW- I am not trying to convert you into a Democrat, I am just trying to get you to ponder the other possibilities.

Toxic, this conversation is a good one. I appreciate you engaging in it. i appreciate where you stand and I hope you appreciate where i come from.
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Old 11-05-2004   #70
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 27
Marco. I agree, it is nice to just banter back and forth without resorting to things like FLOWTORCH does. It is Friday and I am tired of sitting in front of this computer. Lets resume on Monday. Have a good weekend.

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