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Old 11-02-2004   #31
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 55
i too am concerned with the deep divisions that the mingling of religion and politics has created in this great nation. gh, i think i may share some simillar experiencies with the religion that i was brought up in. and suprisingly enough, i have said a few small prayers lately. my prayer has been simple, and it has been that i pray the correct man reaches office. some how this election has become a vote for good vs evil, right and wrong. it is not that clear. i worry that blind faith has replaced intelectual annalysis. what is the consertive, evangelical, extreme right going to do when there man looses? and that question goes to the left as well. if kerry gets elected will there be a religious backlash? will there be be a lot of christians wondering the streets with their beliefs shattered? if bush wins, will the folks from the left start making some true noise? just thinking out loud. i just got back from voting, i feel good, optimistic. blame me, i voted bush in 2000, but decided not to make the same mistake twice!!!

just a few random thoughts.

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Old 11-02-2004   #32
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Denver, Colorado
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As if there were any doubt about how important this election is, here's an ugly potential twist if we end up in another debacle like Florida 2000. From a great electoral college poll site:
SCOTUS news: Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist announced last week that he was going to return to the Supreme Court yesterday. He did not return. According to the New York Times his office released a terse statement saying that the Chief Justice spent 7 days at Bethesda Naval Hospital where he was treated for thyroid cancer. He underwent a tracheotomy so he could breathe and he is now being given both chemotherapy and radiation treatment. Medical experts say this evidence suggests that the cancer was not successfully removed and that even with heroic treatment, patients with this type of cancer usually die within a year. Should the election end up in the Supreme Court, it is not known whether Rehnquist will particpate in the case and vote on the outcome. Should he decline to participate due to ill health, the deadlock in the country might end up in a Court itself deadlocked 4-4. In such an event, the lower court ruling stands but no legal precedent is set. An alternative scenario is that Chief Justice Rehnquist resigns and that President Bush makes a recess appointment, which does not require Senate confirmation. If Bush were to appoint a new justice without Senate confirmation who then cast the deciding vote to make Bush president I fear for the future of the country. Let us hope somebody wins big today with no litigation. Do your part and vote.

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Old 11-02-2004   #33
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Durango, Colorado
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Something for Christian voters to ponder:

When it comes to the issues, I agree 70% of the time with Kerry and 30% of the time with Bush. Therefore, I should place my vote for Kerry.

However, I see where some of the Christian voters are coming from, but I think they are mislead. As a Christian for many years, I want a president who prays for guidance and has an active relationship with God. I think many Christians may not agree with Bush, but may vote for him because they think he is a "man of God" or at least more so than Kerry. I have actually said a few prayers myself seeking guidance for this election.

My conclusion is that Bush seems like a phony. He puts up a front as if he is a Godly man, but we don't know anything about his relationship with God. He realizes if he can protray himself a certain way, he can win more votes from Christians. Actions aren't everything, but since we can't see into his heart, we have to make decisions based on his actions. Look at his actions outside of public office (don't seem very Christian to me). Even some of his policy as president isn't very Christian. Do we really know this guy? Or is he just creating a character that will appeal to Christians and moral conservatives to gather votes.

Who would Jesus REALLY vote for?...good question
Let's just all hope and pray the right man wins.
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Old 11-02-2004   #34
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71
I usually hate off topic posts on MB (isn't that more of a BT thing?), but have been sucked into this one!

I'm glad to see more respectful dialoge and actual insight--it is very easy to name-call for both sides.

I'm also glad to see people who care about the country we live in, even if I don't agree with you all.

It's funny to me to see so many concerned about Bush's religion. It is a non-issue to me. He is religious, and gleans values from his religion. Is that so strange? I have heard Kerry speak many times about his religion, but no one here notices. I saw a stat somewhere (that's helpful, isn't it?) that Clinton made some 150 visits to churches in his time in office, with Bush only making some 4 appearances in churches other than his own. A week or so ago Kerry was making a stump speach from within a church with Jackson and Sharpton next to him. I'm surpised that no one here is alarmed by this--does the left give Kerry a pass?

Actually, I believe the church and state issue has been blown way out of proportion. I am not a religious person, but I am aware that the founding fathers of our nation were. They began meetings with prayers, and congressional sessions today are still started with a prayer. This is very old news. In fact, our presidents through time have been religious. However, to have the state sponser one religion over another would, as our founding fathers wrote into law, be a travesty. But having a religious leader is not the same thing.

Anyhow, as I said I'm happy to see so many people participating. Many have died for our right to vote, and it is an insult for us not to go through the trouble to complete our individual civic duties of becoming aware of the issues and then acting.

For our country's sake, I hope there is a clear winner from this election. As a Bush supporter, I have decided that if Kerry wins this election, I will support his presidency, even if I don't celebrate it. It is not up to Kerry or Bush to bring us together (although an early concession speach from the looser would not hurt), it us up to all Americans to accept the winner of the election as our rightful leader. Like it or not, most of us have a hell of a lot more in common with one another than we have differences.
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Old 11-03-2004   #35
Carbondale, Colorado
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Incompetent " Christians"

uhhhhh? No we don't have that much in common. I am a religious person and I am more afraid of the current administration and its self-righteousness then ever. Bush is so vocal about being born again that I don't believe it. Religion is personal matter. It is about self-discovery and making changes to better the lives of others. It's not about talking about how religious you are and vocally justifying your decisions thusly.

Christianity is about forgiveness, about trying to understand the other point of view. Above all, it is about tolerance. Please show me one instance where this administration has preached about or acted with tolerance. There is nothing Christian about this administration, and the sad thing is, that's how they won the vote, by appealing to the evangelical vote.

Like the Economist said, "the Incompetent or the Incoherent?" Looks like we picked incompetence.
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Old 11-03-2004   #36
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I guess it depends on how you want to spin it. I have read articles that believe that Bush believes he is in a holy war with Muslims. Bush sat up the faith based initiative that funnels billions in aid to churches. Those types of things worry me. Probably a good portion of it is that I do not like Bush's policy's, etc and I find anything marginal to support my beliefs.
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Old 11-03-2004   #37
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I thought this article was an interesting perspective on the election.

Living Poor, Voting Rich

In the aftermath of this civil war that our nation has just fought, one result is clear: the Democratic Party's first priority should be to reconnect with the American heartland.

I'm writing this on tenterhooks on Tuesday, without knowing the election results. But whether John Kerry's supporters are now celebrating or seeking asylum abroad, they should be feeling wretched about the millions of farmers, factory workers and waitresses who ended up voting - utterly against their own interests - for Republican candidates.

One of the Republican Party's major successes over the last few decades has been to persuade many of the working poor to vote for tax breaks for billionaires. Democrats are still effective on bread-and-butter issues like health care, but they come across in much of America as arrogant and out of touch the moment the discussion shifts to values.

"On values, they are really noncompetitive in the heartland," noted Mike Johanns, a Republican who is governor of Nebraska. "This kind of elitist, Eastern approach to the party is just devastating in the Midwest and Western states. It's very difficult for senatorial, Congressional and even local candidates to survive."

In the summer, I was home - too briefly - in Yamhill, Ore., a rural, working-class area where most people would benefit from Democratic policies on taxes and health care. But many of those people disdain Democrats as elitists who empathize with spotted owls rather than loggers.

One problem is the yuppification of the Democratic Party. Thomas Frank, author of the best political book of the year, "What's the Matter With Kansas: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America," says that Democratic leaders have been so eager to win over suburban professionals that they have lost touch with blue-collar America.

"There is a very upper-middle-class flavor to liberalism, and that's just bound to rub average people the wrong way," Mr. Frank said. He notes that Republicans have used "culturally powerful but content-free issues" to connect to ordinary voters.

To put it another way, Democrats peddle issues, and Republicans sell values. Consider the four G's: God, guns, gays and grizzlies.

One-third of Americans are evangelical Christians, and many of them perceive Democrats as often contemptuous of their faith. And, frankly, they're often right. Some evangelicals take revenge by smiting Democratic candidates.

Then we have guns, which are such an emotive issue that Idaho's Democratic candidate for the Senate two years ago, Alan Blinken, felt obliged to declare that he owned 24 guns "and I use them all." He still lost.

As for gays, that's a rare wedge issue that Democrats have managed to neutralize in part, along with abortion. Most Americans disapprove of gay marriage but do support some kind of civil unions (just as they oppose "partial birth" abortions but don't want teenage girls to die from coat-hanger abortions).

Finally, grizzlies - a metaphor for the way environmentalism is often perceived in the West as high-handed. When I visited Idaho, people were still enraged over a Clinton proposal to introduce 25 grizzly bears into the wild. It wasn't worth antagonizing most of Idaho over 25 bears.

"The Republicans are smarter," mused Oregon's governor, Ted Kulongoski, a Democrat. "They've created ... these social issues to get the public to stop looking at what's happening to them economically."

"What we once thought - that people would vote in their economic self-interest - is not true, and we Democrats haven't figured out how to deal with that."

Bill Clinton intuitively understood the challenge, and John Edwards seems to as well, perhaps because of their own working-class origins. But the party as a whole is mostly in denial.

To appeal to middle America, Democratic leaders don't need to carry guns to church services and shoot grizzlies on the way. But a starting point would be to shed their inhibitions about talking about faith, and to work more with religious groups.

Otherwise, the Democratic Party's efforts to improve the lives of working-class Americans in the long run will be blocked by the very people the Democrats aim to help.
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Old 11-03-2004   #38
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Or maybe, it is because the people in the heartland know when a person is being genuine and has a good set of core values that the Dem's are missing. If you go into every election trying to be something you aren't just to get elected, the people will know. The Democratic party really needs to look at itself and decide what their values are. I am not saying that you don't have values, I am saying that the party is becoming a combination of too many things and people aren't clear anymore on what the party believes or stands for. Maybe it is time for someone that is in the middle (other than Nader) to take on the leadership of the Independent party. I think a lot of people would take to a person who truly is in the middle and not a kook. Just a thought.
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Old 11-03-2004   #39
Denver, Colorado
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I agree that the Democrats need to figure something out. But I don't agree with the heartland people know who is genuine. I don't think you can either mr toxic man. GW is about as genuine and authentic as a boob job.
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Old 11-03-2004   #40
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Wait just a minute there, I like boob jobs.

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