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Old 04-29-2010   #141
no tengo
mania's Avatar
Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
Everyone should write, email and call with your experiences that 600 is low and 900, 1200, 2000 is fine or that you are a competent boater and would like to 'do the virgin' but not if she is off limits as soon as she starts runnin at a reasonable level. be as nice as you can.

if all the public outcry is not enough a lawsuit should follow.

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Old 04-29-2010   #142
no tengo
mania's Avatar
Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
also if you are a boatertalk member i need a little support on this thread

BoaterTalk: BoaterTalk - paddling Zion in Danger

some knucklehead named david weber is supporting the park! maybe he is the one they got their ridiculous information from as he is listed from utah.

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Old 04-29-2010   #143
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 06
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 450
Alright, here is the deal...I just talked to B/C Ranger Ray O'Neil...

He said they are standing by an upper limit of 600 cfs which is nonnegotiable.

The reasoning behind this is that they did speak with local boater because they are the ones that will need to be called in case of an emergency. The "local" boaters said that they would not be interested in helping a rescue over 600 cfs. Yes this is true that the local boaters seem incapable of navigating class III but the Ranger said that if a rescue was necessary they themselves would be unable to help, and that would not look good on CNN. By the way, Ray said he thinks the canyon is boatable at 150cfs (which I/we know is wrong) as some Rangers put on last year and made it in a day during their rescue efforts. Of course they were hiking, not boating.

So here are the breaks the way I see it...Zion is virtually shut down except to local boaters who A. do not have to invest at least 8 hours of driving. B can catch it over 350cfs C. can catch it lower than 600cfs. given the 200cfs swings daily that pretty much says nobody can run it without a miracle and you certainly can't have a job. We know that a 300cfs put on is minimal, I would recommend a 350, the problem is that has to be the low, it cannot be the high and the river swings 200cfs per day. There is just no way guys, we are done on this one.

Though I offered several helping hints, like remote permitting, allowances for parties that have successfully navigated the canyon, and documenting the canyon this weekend at hopefully high flows Ray seemed unreceptive and did most of the talking supporting their decision. By the way, he said that a few of the parties that needed rescuing last year claimed they had run it before...congratulations guys, this is officially your fault!

I guess I do not have much else to say besides I am writing the park superintendent again, as well as Ray to portray my dismay.

"Jock Whitworth" <> Jock is the park superintendent
"Ray O'Neil" <Ray_O'> Ray is the Backcountry Ranger in charge
"ZION park information" <> park general address
"Ron Terry" <> Ron is the park spokesperson

copy them all and as stated above be as cordial as possible.
I've never boated before, but I have posted a lot on Mountain Buzz!
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Old 04-29-2010   #144
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Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
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Posts: 4,207
That is a total bummer...I have been patiently watching and waiting for things to settle so I could possibly have the chance to run it this summer...and now it seems that is pretty much f*cked.
thanks for the beta.
GARNA’s mission is to foster stewardship of the resources of the greater Arkansas River region through education, volunteerism and experiences.
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Old 04-29-2010   #145
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Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posts: 183
SUX. <ail some letters and hope for a touch of reason I guess.
God Bless SKA Brewery-Sturgeon General
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Old 04-29-2010   #146
West By God, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 289
600 cfs is an arbitrary and capricious number. There is certainly no science that backs it up. I don't think there was a public comment period either prior to announcing this rule. The fact that the NPS is announcing this decision on the eve of the 2010 season is indicative of its negative intentions regarding boating. Injunctive relief in federal court may well be necessary to preserve the 2010 boating season.
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Old 04-29-2010   #147
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 154
As much as I want to see this rule changed, I don't see it happening. I'm not saying by writing and what not, but even by challenging them in federal court I hate to say. I'm not trying to be a downer, but the NPS is allowed to make rules to manage a park as they see fit for the preservation of the resources. There is nothing mandating how they distribute access, they are allowed to set those rules, e.g., Grand Canyon. Some of you read the decision handed down to RRFW. It more or less nailed the coffin shut on legal challenges to the CRMP. Trying to sue the NPS is going to be difficult, and probably not a winner.

I think that calm, logical conversation with the sup. and rangers is the best way. Legal challenges will be expensive and probably not result in what we want. I'd love to see this resolved, and will do my part.
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Old 04-29-2010   #148
West By God, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 289
True, but this decision doesn't have anything to do with preservation of resources. I certainly agree with you about a calm logical conversation in the long term, but the water is only going to be there this year for a very short period. This situation is also very distinguishable from the RRFW debacle that challenged the CRMP, which is a plan that was created over time following the procedures that must be followed for a federal agency to make a rule. I don't know the specifics of the situation in Zion, but it appears that this was a hastily made rule that wasn't established pursuant to the required procedure.
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Old 04-29-2010   #149
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 50
(Respectiveful) Letter sent, we'll see what happens. I still really want to go. We'll keep everyone posted.

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Old 04-29-2010   #150
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 25
everybody write

In your letters you might want to note that the flow you paddle the narrows on is the low ebb of the day. No one boats the overnight spikes that pass the VC in the morning, those bubbles pass through the narrows in the dark. Another thought is to offer to be a rescuer at high flows, if that's what they need.
On the other hand, if it's 1000 in there, what's La Verkin Creek running?

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