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Old 04-29-2010   #131
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Cutch View Post
The last time I went there I pretty much decided I wasn't going back unless it was above 600 cfs or close. I was thinking 2000 cfs would be good..

So who do we contact and how do we get on this local boater committee that gets to dictate runnable water levels for the rest of us?
I agree with this, it is actually more dangerous the lower because of the length of time required for negotiating 14 cfs on NF for 8 hrs, and hereby nominate Cutch to be the official spokesman of the kayaking dirties.

If you go this weekend, you will likely need to stop by a "clinic" on the way and say, "I'm about to float on 14 cfs for 8 hrs, I need the strong stuff. Like whatever you give people with AIDS and a week left to live, that's what I need".

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Old 04-29-2010   #132
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
Thanks mania and crapor. I emailed them a nice letter saying there boating policy was jacked and that we needed to consult to avoid further issues. Thanks to the shit-show last year the policy says this:

"Experienced boaters realize that each description they have heard and read may be vastly different than the conditions they will encounter on their trip."

And then at the end says this:

"Experienced parties that are planning to paddle in the park should research and read multiple route descriptions and trip reports prior to commiting to the trip."

It seems to me the park service is intelligent enough to know that it's beneficial to have the right beta out there, and yet they aren't sure what the right beta is, and where it comes from. That, and they question WWSR because Curtis got jacked last year and blamed us. We may have screwed up a handful of run descriptions (the Fremont, NM Gila, Santa Cruz, etc), but the Zion description seems pretty accurate to me.

Kyle McCutchen
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Old 04-29-2010   #133
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Denver, Colorado
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I assume it would help if everyone fired off an email discussing the change in flow policies to the rangers?
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Old 04-29-2010   #134
prov-ozone, utard
Paddling Since: 99
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 23
"such a utarded elf flow thing..."

i don't think kyle was meaning to diss all of us utards, but it came across to me like i shouldn't have respect for any martin's because of cemartin, or disliking all musicians because of kenny g...

"...When Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked-up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks, he... shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician."-Pat Metheny

i totally dig all i've heard of you, kyle, and as a single dad of a 7 and 5 year old, i can honestly state that i sleep w/ my copy of wwsr(the damn book is probably one of the biggests reasons i'm a single dad...).

no fuck you's ala cemartin comin' from this utard, but a heartfelt gratitude for all rivers(at all flows), my fellow boaters, and the holy new testament of whitewater that i have already dog-eared!!!!

peace all ya all!!!
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Old 04-29-2010   #135
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 50
Yeah, I bet it would, so long as we're saying the same thing. Cutch, do you have the langauge you used in your letter? Something to the affect of how too low can be just as dangerous if not more and good reasons why...and that high water is not necessarily a danger, especially for experienced boaters. I think it would also be helpful from experienced boaters who have actually ran the Narrows at higher water, qualified by some other WW experience and perspective. I work with land managers every day and it helps to be deferential to some degree.

The Park sees a lot of dumb asses every year who tend to exponentially increase the dramatic effects of misinformed beta (I am implicating NO ONE in PARTICULAR here on either side of the coin), and a lot of dumb asses in general. Its hard to blame the NPS for this policy as much as it may suck, but we should be organized about how we approach them. Its too bad we are where we are, WTF happened to individual liability? This shit wouldn't fly most anywhere other than the good ole US of A!

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Old 04-29-2010   #136
dillon, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
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I also sent a letter in requesting that they not restrict permits based on flows. Thanks for the beta. Also has anyone ran the narrows yet this year??? Hows the wood/log raft situation right now?
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Old 04-29-2010   #137
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 06
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Posts: 450
I actually wrote a letter last night and got a call from the ranger i opened a dialog with a few months ago.

I suggested we (kev, myself, ben, cutch) all drop in on that canyon and document what we see this weekend.

He just called and I missed it but I am calling back in a few...I will post what is up...
I've never boated before, but I have posted a lot on Mountain Buzz!
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Old 04-29-2010   #138
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
Johnie A, wasn't trying to single out Utah boaters or dis them in anyway. In fact, I learned the Utarded expressions from close Utah-based friends that referred to them as utards. ELF was a term I first figured out from visiting AZ... stands for extreme low flow. And I'm pretty sure people from places other than Utah are largely to blame for current policies. The local terminology was a bit tongue in cheek, since I don't think there are very many kayakers that live within 100 miles of Zion.

I love paddlers and rivers of all degrees of difficulty. Just pissed that one of the more magnificent runs of the Rocky Mountains is getting shut down, and according to the park it's because we as boaters have been giving them bad beta. Just because beginner paddlers might want low flow, doesn't mean that it's the only level that it is safe.

I wrote the letter on the website submittal thing and sent it... not in my email. Wish I would have made a copy.
Kyle McCutchen
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Old 04-29-2010   #139
prov-ozone, utard
Paddling Since: 99
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power to the peaceful!!!

thanks for the reply, kyle! and, thanks all you all for the letters and emails and calls to the park service!!! keepin' my fingers crossed...

johnnie atard
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Old 04-29-2010   #140
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 06
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 450
I keep on getting Ray (BC ranger's) voicemail. I will post when I get to actually talk with him. I also left and sent some messages to him and Zion superintendent that we would like to meet with them, perhaps after one of our runs to explain what we saw. I think a lot of their concern is that they do not know what is in there, rapids, wood, whatever.

to be clear it seems in his voicemail he left me that they are sticking to their guns on not letting anyone boat with a 600cfs flow in the past 24 hours.

again, I am due a call from him to see where the negotiation begins.

Is AW aware of this? Could they be any help? I am not 100% familiar with what they fight for but this seems like it could be on their radar!

more later

I've never boated before, but I have posted a lot on Mountain Buzz!
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