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Old 11-12-2011   #91
The next zone, .
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by Badazws6 View Post
It also appears there are plans for a permit system by AHRA during the viewing portion of the project that appears setup to be able to scaled out to other sections of the river on a more permanent basis.
You are right about this and it is very real.

Or if it is not clear - Parks is going to make Christo pay all the costs to create a system to ration private boaters with the intent of moving this system to other sections as needed.

Boaters will be rationed during the project and Christo is paying for a bunch of extra "staff" or security to make sure this goes smoothly.

The art continues.

"I feel better than any other time when I am in the mountains and uh I cant explain it ya know...." - Shawn Farmer..........
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Old 11-12-2011   #92
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883

I have to agree with GH's approach here. There are pretty clear legal implications to the actions contemplated in a few recent posts, about which the moderators have a legitimate right to be concerned, in my view.

Yes, over the years other topics have touched on activity that might be viewed under the law as criminal. But this seems to me quite a bit different than the usual banter about drugs and other river subculture stuff, which has been sort of part of the Buzz over the years.

Torching Christo's "art" would go far beyond vandalism of a sign or poaching a river. It would be a very visible state crime, and even possibly result in a Federal arson charge. And I can understand why the folks running the Buzz would not want to be anywhere near an accusation that they helped propagate a conspiracty to commit arson.

Sound far-fetched? Well, maybe a bit. But it's within the realm of probabilities the way things are going these days. And I'm sure the Buzz's bank account is nowhere near ready to buy the kind of legal muscle needed to fight charges of even tangential involvement in a major felony.

Final thought, even though I'm not a lawyer. Seems to me that individuals certainly can express whatever views they like in an available public forum. The forum, however, has no obligation to allow discussions of criminal activity to go forward -- and might even have an affirmative duty to act to stop them. And the First Amendment doesn't apply, since this isn't a government activity.

FWIW, from a guy who doesn't want Christo to have his way either.

Rich Phillips

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Old 11-12-2011   #93
Fort Collins, CO Summer Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Randaddy View Post
We don't all have little birds living in our facial hair BrownTrout...
That's cause when you a grow a beard it looks like feces on your face. Perhaps from all the shit that usually flows from your mouth.
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Old 11-12-2011   #94
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Riverdale, Utah
Paddling Since: 1977
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 228
I understand GHs concern. Its not so clear what is a joke and what isn't on an internet board. Thats why they have smiley faces, frowny faces and such; there is no emotion to a written post, so its hard to interpret.

I am also reminded of something that happened to a friend of mine, while going through airport security in Florida, to fly to Peru for a mountaineering trip. This was in the late 70s, far before 9/11 and the increased airport security we have now. Airport security asked him what the duffel full of ice screws, ice axes, and crampons was. He said, CLEARLY in jest, "its a bomb". Guess what, they did not think this was funny. Then saying "I'm joking!! It was a joke!!" a hundred times did not help. He was placed in solitary confinement, strip searched, and held for 3 days.
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Old 11-12-2011   #95
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Originally Posted by Randaddy View Post
GH, everything was OBVIOUSLY stated in jest. Speech is free in this country, particularly when it's intended to be funny - so nobody is breaking the law here. If somebody ends up burning this piece of shit, I mean art, I will celebrate by dancing. I doubt I'll get in trouble with the law, as I live and work very far from the Ark.

You're just butt hurt because you want to see this stupid little art project come to fruition and some of us would rather see it burn. Quit being such a pussy and let people speak their minds.
Its not that obvious that you or any of you were speaking in jest. As far as free speech, I am not a lawyer but there seems to be limits and consequences to every action in my life so I am not sure how FREE anything is. Mountainbuzz is simply the communication medium that allows you the opportunity to speak your mind. You and you alone are responsible for the content of your posts.

Since you are challenging my position on this project. I will restate my thoughts. I probably run parkdale more than most that have posted here and I am happy to see the ugly graffiti train go and I would be happy to see some of the concrete and rebar gone with the $1M that they promised in additional cleanup. I did meet Christo and his partner at old parkdale take out at the very beginning of this project and they did seem like nice people and were very curious about what I thought about the project. They didnt act haughty or pompous like I would have expected. They explained it and I said I couldnt say I was for it but would keep an open mind. They explained they had $10M for cleanup and the additional $1M to improve existing problems on Parkdale. I pointed out the slabs of concrete and rebar along the section and they said yes we could use the money for things like that, well then I was for it and still will be if they follow through with that promise. Now if the AHRA is using this to start a permitting system that's not Christo's fault and a thread should be started about the AHRA. Because I would not be for that in any way.
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 11-13-2011   #96
Duluth, Minnesota
Paddling Since: 2007
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 175
Before jumping down everyone else's throats about their evil "carbon footprint":
Consider the footprint of our sport: Oil is drilled somewhere in the world (burning other oil in the process), then it is shipped to the US, processed once (burning more oil), then shipped elsewhere (burning more oil) to be turned into a material that can be used to mold a kayak (once again burning more oil). Then it's shipped to a manufacturer (yep, more oil) who turns it into a boat, in turn shipping it to a dealer (yes, still more oil burned). Then you go pick it up, and burn hundreds maybe thousands of gallons of gas driving to and from the river and setting shuttle.
So if you really want to follow it through logically, which group is doing more harm..those trying to make a living by driving a truck and delivering your boat, or the rest of us just out enjoying ourselves paddling every weekend?
I don't know the specifics of the project and am not coming down one way or the other, but when people start attacking others based on their carbon footprint they should take a look inward first.
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Old 11-14-2011   #97
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Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,207
There was a map of the locations where the "art" will be located in Salida's newspaper the Mountain Mail, Bureau approves

I guess I didn't realize it was going to be so big.....and they are basically going to cover all the rapids! Doesn't make sense...you think they would want to cover the flats...

here is a little tidbit from the article confirming some negatives:

"The mitigation measures fact sheet released Monday by the Bureau of Land Management Royal Gorge Field Office addresses key issues regarding bighorn sheep.
It acknowledges significant impact to angling in the immediate area of the project, stipulates at least one lane of traffic on U.S. 50 remain open at all times during the project, and mentions plans to develop a temporary boat rationing system for the exhibition.
Christo said mitigation measures are intensive. He said he isn't knowledgeable about specifics, but has confidence in the abilities of professionals he hired to meet requirements of the environmental impact study."

It also said he had already spent 11 million dollars just getting the project this far....
GARNA’s mission is to foster stewardship of the resources of the greater Arkansas River region through education, volunteerism and experiences. https://garna.org
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Old 11-14-2011   #98
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Encampment, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 12
wheres our modern day monkey wrench gang
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Old 11-14-2011   #99
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Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
11 Million paying people off.... rediculous idea? gotta be the stupidest thing i have ever heard of thats the only stertch for the canon folk when the gorge is too big for commericial.. and super popular due to the easy access..
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Old 11-14-2011   #100
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 111
Better idea, we take the $1000000 "bonus" clean up money and hire lawyers to sue the railroad till they clean up parkdale, the royal gorge, browns, gore, etc, etc, etc...

Is it silly? Yup. Is it unnecessary? Yep. Will I drive down and boat under it? Hell yeah. Do I wish cristo put it over ten mile so I could make money off it? Yeah. Is it going to destroy or ruin or other wise modify the river? No. It probably has less impact than the cars that drive into river every year or the MINE the thing flows out of or all the custy paddles and P-PM beers that get lost in there.

Russel, I'm not sure of Hayduke/Bonnie/et als where abouts but I'm guessing they're stopping the keystone pipeline or something that is actually significant. If you care about rivers and the environment this is not the fight to fight, if anything this will get more people to care about the Arkansas who have never heard about it before.

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