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Old 07-10-2009   #61
West By God, Wyoming
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Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
Ok so obviously the Gauley has some serious swims but thousands of comercial trips run it every year but zero comercials will touch Pine Creek so that might be telling you something.
It tells you something about the raft guides in WV.

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Old 07-11-2009   #62
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Englewood, Colorado
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Originally Posted by UserName View Post
commercials have been running Pine Creek for about 20 years now
Yeah, but *thousands* of people raft the Upper G every year. I doubt Pine Creek sees a fraction of that; all the business goes downstream of there.

Given a drysuit, I'd swim Pine Creek any day before I swam Lost Paddle (once got worked in a hole above Tumblehome and rolled up stuck in a squirt in the funny water, and looked over my shoulder to see a raft pinned across the Mail Slot as I was getting pushed toward it - scary) or Shipwreck (one place where you would have to be way over your head if you swam, but good luck getting around that rock if you do).

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Old 07-11-2009   #63
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Originally Posted by FrankC View Post
Ok so obviously the Gauley has some serious swims but thousands of comercial trips run it every year but zero comercials will touch Pine Creek so that might be telling you something.
Pine Creek is a narrow chute with an "unavoidable" very powerful hole for rafts. I can't think of anywhere on the Upper Gauley with a similarly powerful and unavoidable hole.
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Old 07-11-2009   #64
Dipshit with the most.
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Originally Posted by Jensjustduckie View Post
Oar rigs are not as nimble, putting paddlers in the boat is like going from 2 wheel drive to 4 wheel drive.
+1 on this. And I haven't paddle boated in several years as I only get out once or twice a year with the family on multi day trips.

I have approx 700+ days in a paddle boat and about 400 in an oar boat. FYI. And I love both positions in the boat.

Originally Posted by rwhyman View Post
This, in my opinion is totally not true. Paddle boats just seem to go straight down the river. Not a lot of side to side or backwards ability. There is no way you can get the leverage that you have with oars in a few paddles.

Anytime I've been around paddle boats, they were always climbing up my a$$. So either they don't have much maneuverability or the guides just like to f#@k with private boaters. And I'm not the kind of boater that is always taking back strokes, I'm always charging ahead, especially in a crowd.

I'll be interested to hear what others have to say about this. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. I've been in a few paddle boats, but I've never guided one.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, sorry.
In a paddle boat you are only as good as your guide and the training he gives the crew. Working on the MF Salmon if you didn't keep your spacing and couldn't keep from climbing up someones ass, you simply would not be asked back to guide. Too many good ones trying to get on the Fork for that kind of horseshit. Your observations back up what someone else said about the relative inexperience of guides running paddle boats in your area.

Originally Posted by BoilermakerU View Post
I don't have years of rafting experience, but I've been in both oar rigs and paddle boats. I currently run an oar rig, because it's just me and my wife, and on tame waters, my kids, so I don't usually have enough folks to run a paddle boat.

I consider myself to have good common sense and to be fairly intelligent (although I've probably lost a few brain cells with age LOL), and it seems to me it all depends on the experience and common sense of ALL persons on the boat. An oar rig with a bunch of novices as passengers but an experienced oarsman could easily be more manueverable than a boat full of novice paddlers with an equivalent experienced guide. On the other hand, a boat full of experienced paddlers and an experienced guide could probably easilly be more manueverable than an oar boat, with or without an experienced oarsman, just because they have more paddles in the water providing force to move the boat where it needs to go. Sure, you have the leverage of the oars, but in a paddle boat, you have the speed of the paddles (ie, more strokes per unit of time).
Interesting but still not totally accurate. I have better luck with paddlers who listen well and follow my every command. A lot of times with experienced paddlers they think too much and volunteer strokes or modify their power based on what they think should be happening. Sometimes with guides even more so.

I do agree that the inexperience level of the individuals involved in this might have contributed to the outcome in this case.

My best paddle boat crew ever was five guys and a dad. The boys had just graduated college and were all on the wrestling team or something. They understood teamwork.
Once the learned about high sides and draw strokes and some other stuff and saw how well they worked together we went off. I surfed three different holes in one rapid alone because of the manueverability.

No oar boat with any amount of power assist could have matched that show.

That doesn't mean that a paddle boat is always the best for any given situation.

What is truly mind boggling to me is that someone would decide to run a class V section at higher water with no support along.
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Old 07-11-2009   #65
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The Ranch, Colorado
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I think the tone of the conversation has been pretty cool, but for legal reasons (that are none of my business) I'd like to point out that the discussion of paddle rigs versus oar rigs has been about educating me, a non-rafter, how the two differ in functionality. I've not seen anyone criticize the crew that suffered the accident in this context, and I'm happy about that, and it's not our purpose to criticize in hindsight.
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 07-11-2009   #66
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Username, actually, commerical companies don't raft Pine Creek above 1250. The flow that day was 1880.

To compare apples to apples, you'd need to talk about swimming the Upper G at around 6,000cfs.

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Old 07-11-2009   #67
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Buena Vista, Colorado
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don't forget triple drop is just downstream...

Originally Posted by Phil U. View Post
Pine Creek is a narrow chute with an "unavoidable" very powerful hole for rafts. I can't think of anywhere on the Upper Gauley with a similarly powerful and unavoidable hole.
not to mention the consequences of a swim there are upped because of triple drop immediately downstream, I can't even imagine the beating you would get swimming it...

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