View Poll Results: Darwin Vs. Education: To help and educate or let nature take its course
Educated and leave: Tell them they are an idiot, keep going 14 28.57%
Educate and help: Tell them they are an idiot, give them help getting down 22 44.90%
Let nature take its course: Smile, wave, and keep paddling 13 26.53%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2005   #11
Front Range, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 274

newby0616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #12
BastrdSonOfElvis's Avatar
Thought-criminal, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 989
Take a deep breath, you are probably about to's devil's advocate time...

Definately save the for the moron..well...aren't there enough morons out there? It's like when you're watching a nature show when you're a kid and the lion kills the baby wildebeast that was just calved and so cute and you ask your dad "why didn't the camera man save it, daddy?" and he says "because it's nature and we're not supposed to intervene, son". We've short circuted evolution to the point where I think our species may actually be growing DUMMER. Stupid people are supposed to meet with an untimely end before they can reproduce. It's how the herd stays strong.

That being said I would still help the idiot. I'm just sick of dumb people and venting.

I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
BastrdSonOfElvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #13
Front Range, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 274
BTW, on the whole, this is NOT a bad or exceedingly "dangerous" river, per se. The guy had put in another two miles downstream, he would've had a fairly clean run with class I+ water at the most. The upper part, though, has the II+/ III runs and then drops thru the falls (the only really gnarly/ scary thing on this river, and it's kind of an anomaly) where there's another couple of mild features right before a takeout. It's like, kayakers get the upper part, and the place we'd be finishing up & taking out is the place it'd be safe for canoeists like that guy to start putting in.

.... just thought I'd disclaimer this so it didn't come off like I was/ we were trying to be a couple of badasses or something! Hey, I'm all about not putting my friends' or my own ass on the line out there myself, y'know?
newby0616 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #14
Durango, CO
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 211
Sitting in the eddy last night, watching the endless line of tubers and k-mart rafts float by,no helmets or pfd's made for some cheap entertainment. but it also reminded me of some of the dumb ass things i did(and occasionaly still do) as a novice kayaker.Looking back it's nice to know people were covering my back and were willing to take the time to help me become a better paddler.Maybe some well deserved smack talking, but not a condescending @#$%# you.There are rockstars that were experts the first time in their boats,that have never done anything stupid,that are egostistical enough to believe that they'll never need help and this isn't really their problem.Cool. for the rest of us, rivers and paddling are an such awesome experience that I think we can share a little time and info with the "clueless".
d.e. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #15
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 116
here is another situation I have seen 100 times. people floating "mild" stretches of river (class 2 +/-) in walmart rafts, inner tubes and air matresses with no PFD. Or floating on an air matress through a water park with no PFD or helmet.

There we are wearing full armor sitting in the eddy and watching joe six-pack float trough the man made hole with a cotton t-shirt.

I am not one for advocating un neccesary sinage but should play parks and put-ins assume that idiots will run the river and post signs that say all river runners must wear protective gear??

Yes, even helmets for tubers (potatos?)

Maybe a water craft to protective gear chart.

seems rediculus but some how people need to be educated to take resonsibility for their own saftey. Or else someone else must risk their own to save them.
onebakedpotato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #16
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Not only is it the kind thing to do but we also have a self interest in preventing the clueless from bringing their disaster to our playground. To name a few:

* We may be able to prevent a rescue situation that puts us or boating friends in peril,

* More deaths on the river means more pressure from soccer moms to close or more stringently regulate river access,

* Boaters get a chance to have an encounter with the a generally non-boating part of the public. If done skillfully and compassionately, this can reflect well upon the boating community in general and help our causes such as access or river conservation,

* It helps keep the river free of tattered walmart rafts, and twisted canoes that can pose a real hazard.

We can easily forget that these people don't actually get up in the morning and say "I'm going to go drown myself and endanger my loved ones and pets." A lot of them are risk-takers like us - the main difference is that they're making a bad decision about how to prepare for fun on the water. I think that if they don't look like they know what they're doing, we should tell them what they're about to get into, what rapids lie ahead. Someone who's wearing/carrying all kinds of specialized gear, obviously at home in the river environment, should be able to get their attention; & they'll probably listen better if its done in a friendly, ("how's it going?") manner than if someone's just bitching at them and calling them idiots. If you've never done something really stupid in your life and survived by the grace of God, I bet you're in the minority.

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
Andy H. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005   #17
WhiteLightning's Avatar
Eagle County, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 928
I'm glad I threw this discussion out there. There have been a lot of accidents out there this year, and not all of them were/are on the Upper A at monster high water. People tend to give me shit sometimes for being overly prepared. I've guided float trips where girls get pissy about wearing PFD's for tan lines, etc., but I insist even if it is class II. I always think that once they've been chundered in a hole, stuck under a rock, or learn about body extraction, then they can decide on their own, but until then, if they are my responsibility to rescue or recover in an accident, they have to wear it.
WhiteLightning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2005   #18
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 93
Last Saturday on the Numbers run, our group was taking a break just downstream of Number 4 when a woman and her boyfriend brought a recreational sea kayak down the hill and prepared for her to put on by herself. We took a low-key approach and asked her if she knew the river and was prepared for what she would encounter. She responded that she knew the river and was prepared. She did wear a helmet and PFD.

I think we agreed at the time, by assessing her willingness to listen and finding she was unwilling to reconsider her plans, we intervened appropriately for the situation. We expected she might have problems, but did not feel she was ready to listen to any advice that would cause her to re-think her plan.

Downstream of Number 6 we found her boat wrapped around a rock with the cockpit against the rock. We could not tell if she was still inside.

We worked as quickly as we could but still spent 10-15 minutes freeing her boat without knowing whether this was going to be a body recovery. We all shared a feeling of trepidation until, with great relief, we found she was not in the boat.

We ultimately located her downstream and reunited her with her boat, where she waited for her boyfriend to come looking for her.

I can tell you, between the time, we found her boat and determined that she was not inside; I was asking myself should I have worded my concerns to her more strongly when she was putting on.

I talked to her later in the day, and our conversation reinforced my impression that a stronger approach would not have changed her plans. I guess if there is a lesson here, it is if something happens, will you feel that you did what you reasonably could to prevent it.

We were just happy that the cost of her actions were limited to gear damage and inconvenience, and she did get a relatively cheap lesson out of the experience. Hope she learned it.
Mike B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2005   #19
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 316
Another angle on this discussion.

What about law inforcement officer that feel a legal obligation to remove a person from what they feel is potentially a dangerous situation? I have read a ton of flaming on that issue alone. It is not all that differnt from this issue. They are just doing their job right? If you tell a person to get off the river then you are just like that cop. But ultimately I dont give a damn.

The issue of tolerance and "live and let live" is one that frustrates me a bit. Often times we think if the person is not harming others then he should be able to do what he chooses. But I disagree. Ultimately if we put our lives in danger then we are putting others at risk in different ways and to different degrees. First the resuers are in danger, then depending on the level of severity you or they put family and friends at risk. If they die then they leave family and friends full of hurt and "what ifs".

So at times I may come off as a pompus judgemental ass but I say tell them how stupid they are not just for their benefit but also for mine and their family and freinds. I have no doubt that atleast they would thank you for it.

benrodda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2005   #20
Front Range, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 274
Glad you brought this subject up too, my friend. I think it's produced some really insightful discussion, & dealt with questions that've crossed everyone's mind from time to time on the river. Yeah, we've all made our share of mistakes (or maybe I'm speaking for myself here? LOL) or had a couple of laughs at someone else's expense out there, but Mike's story really drives home the point that situations that may be good for a river carnage chuckle can quickly turn into something where alot more could potentially be on the line.

BakedPotato made the comment about installing signs at put ins or playparks letting folks know, at the very least, wearing a PFD is mandatory: I think it's a great idea, and might be worth pursuing with a draft proposal or board appeal at the local level first. I'm sure y'all wouldn't have any problems finding enough people who've been on body recoveries or nasty resuces to get together and draft something-- you guys have to have a couple of attorneys who boat regularly out there, or at least an empathetic ear or two in your local council/ political pool who could lend a hand coming up with something more formal?

In this area, the TVA provides energy for several states (they also pollute the hell out of our rivers, but that's a different thread....), and a couple of those states *have* adopted policies of placing signage at all their river put-ins. Even float streams and class I rivers in AL have signs mandating anyone who uses the river wear "appropriate" coast-guard approved floatation devices. As backwards as AL can be, they install signs ON THE RIVER BANK itself if features are coming up exceeding about a class II+ run. It's not pretty, no, but the signs aren't all over the place, either. And at least folks know a) they HAVE to wear a PFD on the water, and b) something is coming up where they're taking a "significant" risk, or could be placing others at risk by trying to run it. TVA doesn't manage all the rivers and streams in the state, but at least they try to encourage people to act responsibly on the waterways that are under their control.

newby0616 is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

» Classified Ads

posted by Rendezvous River Sports


Fluid Flirt (med)

posted by dlanci

Medium Fluid Flirt. Bought brand new in 2007. Great river...

Wavesport Diesel 60

posted by pattimiller747

Cool colors - purples, black and greys Lightly used two...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:36 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.