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Old 09-17-2007   #21
TimWalker's Avatar
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 205
This is a clear case of boater logic. $3.00 saved is a beer earned!!

Seriously, though, don't misunderstand the park rangers duties. It is in their job description to create revenue for the parks system through citations. It is not a case of a ranger being a "dick" that day, the ranger probably thinks people who try to wheasle out of paying are dicks and has no problem writing them up - no one is entitled to free use.

Asking about the alcohol is more scary to me. Last thing kayakers need is a bunch of over aggressive cops hassling us. Did the ranger have probable cause to want to search your vehicle? No! No one should let a law enforcement officer search your vehicle without due cause, it is principle!!!!! I was searched in WV for having a kayak on my vehicle. They can ask, and if you say yes then you gave permission and whatever they might find was just found legally. Just simply say, "No, you can't search my vehicle out of principle for my rights." If they get agro on you, don't give up your rights but don't be disrespectful, either. Say something like: "I know that asking to search my vehicle is a technique law enforcement uses but I stand on my principle and on the laws of our nation that you don't currently have the right to search my vehicle. Of course, you can contact a judge and attempt to get a search warrant, if you choose to." They will back down.

Looks like you've been missing a lot of work lately.

I wouldn't say I've been *missing* it, Bob.
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Old 09-17-2007   #22
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
I am with ya Andy. I buy the parks pass but it basically only good for the ark and now not even all of the ark. The pine creek sneak now requires a habitat stamp. What the hell is a habitat stamp?

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 09-17-2007   #23
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Summit, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
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Originally Posted by gh View Post
I am with ya Andy. I buy the parks pass but it basically only good for the ark and now not even all of the ark. The pine creek sneak now requires a habitat stamp. What the hell is a habitat stamp?

I believe it comes free with a fishing license, which I buy just for the S&R, anyways. Theoretically they require one for the Upper Blue, also.

"The world would be a better place if everyone kayaked."-Brad Ludden (Valhalla)
"You only get one chance to run a drop blind."-DD
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Old 09-17-2007   #24
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 148
Paying user fees is for chumps.
I will destroy you.
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Old 09-17-2007   #25
Fred Gnarquist
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carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Steve Kahn View Post
whatever - i'm with fred here. i've never paid to load up boats at the takeout, when i wasn't parked there for more than loading/unloading. does that mean if you are setting up shuttle and leaving a car down there, then you are supposed to pay for the driving shuttle vehicle too?

that's BS.

I'd bet that most boaters only pay when leaving a car down there.

what a load of crap - i've seen the sign that says you must pay to enter, and even had a debate about it a few weeks ago, but this seems like the dumbest rule ever.

i wonder, fred, if the ranger caught some attitude from you guys or something? seems like even though the above buzzards all seem to pay from home when they are thinking about gore, most boaters do like you guys do/did. i bet most rangers are cool with that routine also (only paying when actually leaving a vehicle) - but maybe we should all realize that we are bending the rules, and if the rangers have reason to hate, they can enforce, therefore your ticket. maybe a "i'm just loading up boats to get them out of the way before i pay" strategy may have worked? or how about "i didn't realize i had to pay just to load up boats, i'll go pay right now."....something like that?

what's the deal with the ark boaters, i mean, it is the same state parks deal for most of the river access, right? are you guys paying to enter and run shuttle too? this seems like the stupidest question ever.

maybe this guy was just a dick, or woke up on the wrong side of the bed?
no we didnt give him any attitude, we were as nice as possible, and i did try both of the suggestions you said, they didnt work, the guy was just unreasonable
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Old 09-17-2007   #26
Fred Gnarquist
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carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by sarahkonamojo View Post
You wonder why boaters might not have the best reputation with the BLM? Or with the ranchers denying river access?

You were using a boat launch! Get a clue. Pay your fees. Be a good citizen. Don't be complaining when you lose access to the river or get ticketed.

If you don't like the system, change it. But your impact is a big as any other user.

Deputy dog
it was not a boat launch, there was no ramp what so ever, it just said loading zone
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Old 09-17-2007   #27
Durango, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 87
Remember when....

Remember when it used to be FREE to go outside and hike/climb/boat/camp etc.?
User fees are inherently illegal and unenforceable. I've literally had dozens of tickets and never paid. They are tickets of "non-compliance". Nothing has ever happened. I'm not cheap either. I donate regularly to the access fund and the ACA. It's called conscientious objection.
Do some research. The Fee Demo program was created in 1996 by a Senator from Ohio w/ 36 acres of public land in his district. It costs more money to collect fees and enforce the rules than they actually collect.
Fee demo has been voted down repeatedly in congress and always makes it back on the agenda as a rider in an appropriations bill. Pork Barrel politics.
Fact is, big business wants to privatize our public lands. All the sheep out there that never question authority are helping their cause. Thanks. How 'bout growing a pair and helping us take back our public lands?
Join the western slope no-fee coalition or arizona no-fee coalition and get involved.
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Old 09-17-2007   #28
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Whitewater Boater, Boating Whitewater
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
Fees, Rules, Fees, Rules, Fees, Rules, just bend over.

I pay the fees, just to avoid the tickets, but it is good to hear that if you do not pay the ticket there is not consequence, perhaps I will stop bending over on this one.

Despite this I think the user fees are bunk. Just give me access (meaning don't sell the land to a private owner). I don't need (and perhaps only slightly want) ramps, mowed grass, a shittah or really even a well maintained drive in. The $3 is not that much money and I waste it every day, I just don't want it to have to be paid there. Already pay tens of thousands in taxes each year, educate everyone else's children and then provide them jobs (despite their poor retention of the education I bought them). Enough public service there in my opinion. But then again who am I...someone who can only spell sometimes.

I got "pulled over" for only having one life jacket (that is what we used to call them) in my two person canoe in the early 90s in NH (we had 2 canoes, 4 people, 2 pfds and it just seemed safest to have one in each canoe which resulted in 2 tickets...btw the one in the back of a canoe is the legal captian in NH). Payed the ticket, did not attend the boater safety course, and now can never register a boat in NH (who cares). Maybe they were just pissed about our bonfire on the 1000 sf island the night before?

Debated this one at length in forest resource polysci classes at one of our nation's respected academonical institutions back when this crap started and just want to let you know...most folks in the non boating world seem to feel the fees are fine, perhaps even not big enough...or perhaps they have just been well trained at this point.

To be clear, they are taxes and not fees. (no duck comments)

Pay the protection fee or we will take away more money or your freedom...hey it works for the mob right? BTW $10 fee to walk up to my truck in a uniform, $50 if you don't pay the fee the day before, $100 if you give me any lip.

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Old 09-18-2007   #29
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254

i'm calling BS on most of this...

i think i've read maybe 2 people that don't pay the fees.

all the rest of you, you imply that you are paying, but aren't really specific to the ridiculous assertion that you must pay fees for every car entering that place. even your shuttle vehicle.

ok, if you've paid for the annual pass, obviously you're in the clear, but for the rest of you fee paying boaters, are you indeed following the reg., or am i sensing some moral fee paying highground hypocrisy? can you not understand the discontent with requiring payment to either

1) enter just to pick up other boaters at the paying vehicle left there during your run; or

2) enter to just pick up boats after completing the run and hitching back up to the putin.

obivously, even though it has been clearly pointed out that entering for any length of time or reason requires payment, i still contend that this law/reg. is ridiculous, stupid, and should be changed.

sorry for your bad luck fred, but thanks for posting, i'll be more watchful of my fee paying habits. it's also news to me (and please correct me if i'm wrong) that the state parks pass is different for teh ark versus upper colorado? they sure look the same...
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Old 09-18-2007   #30
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
this is what you do.

im calling bullshit on this dude.

say you've paid your $5o which is 3 years worth of passes and to go shove it!! than run over his foot as you drive off make sure to peel out so the smoke and dust covers up your license plate hes not a cop!!! if hes cool he will chase you, but most chances are he will sit and feel like a dumb shit.

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