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Old 09-17-2007   #11
caverdan's Avatar
C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
Originally Posted by fred norquist View Post
i was at the middle loading space, my car was off but it was clear that we werent parked there, that we were just loading boats
Lets see were using the road to get to your boat.......then you used the center space to load up said boat. It plainly states that the three dollars is a user fee. If it was a parking fee.......then it would say $3.00 parking fee. Basides......if you turned your car were parked.

Moral to your story......... If you don't want to pay the fee.....then don't use the place.

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Old 09-17-2007   #12
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254
whatever - i'm with fred here. i've never paid to load up boats at the takeout, when i wasn't parked there for more than loading/unloading. does that mean if you are setting up shuttle and leaving a car down there, then you are supposed to pay for the driving shuttle vehicle too?

that's BS.

I'd bet that most boaters only pay when leaving a car down there.

what a load of crap - i've seen the sign that says you must pay to enter, and even had a debate about it a few weeks ago, but this seems like the dumbest rule ever.

i wonder, fred, if the ranger caught some attitude from you guys or something? seems like even though the above buzzards all seem to pay from home when they are thinking about gore, most boaters do like you guys do/did. i bet most rangers are cool with that routine also (only paying when actually leaving a vehicle) - but maybe we should all realize that we are bending the rules, and if the rangers have reason to hate, they can enforce, therefore your ticket. maybe a "i'm just loading up boats to get them out of the way before i pay" strategy may have worked? or how about "i didn't realize i had to pay just to load up boats, i'll go pay right now."....something like that?

what's the deal with the ark boaters, i mean, it is the same state parks deal for most of the river access, right? are you guys paying to enter and run shuttle too? this seems like the stupidest question ever.

maybe this guy was just a dick, or woke up on the wrong side of the bed?

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Old 09-17-2007   #13
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Maybe Fred made the Ranger watch his promo video.
hey diddle diddle...
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Old 09-17-2007   #14
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Photographer, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 229
I am happy to pay the user fees at the put-ins or take-outs as it is a very small price to pay for some big fun. And the way I look at it I use the restrooms and the boat ramps I may as well pay my share to keep the place clean and taken care of.
On the Ark I buy my state parks pass at the beginning of the season and just keep the receipt in my drybag, it sure saves a bunch of hassle and hidin' from rangers...It is those damned $50-plus lift tickets that are killin' me.

"You gotta fight for your right to paddle!"
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Old 09-17-2007   #15
FoCo,NoCo, Colorado
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 280
What about Stop here. Pay fee is unclear?

You wonder why boaters might not have the best reputation with the BLM? Or with the ranchers denying river access?

You were using a boat launch! Get a clue. Pay your fees. Be a good citizen. Don't be complaining when you lose access to the river or get ticketed.

If you don't like the system, change it. But your impact is a big as any other user.

Deputy dog
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Old 09-17-2007   #16
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 272
use fees = double taxation.
"I would drag my balls across broken glass just to hear her fart into a walkie talkie" -Jay Drury
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Old 09-17-2007   #17
GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 486
I agree that pulling into the boat ramp to load your boats and then leaving is "use" and should be paid for.

One issue that I have, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that the $3 fee does not go directly toward maintaining that boat ramp, or even Colorado boat ramps, are even boat ramps in general. I understand that the $3 fee goes into a general fund at the national level from which all congressional budgets are met. I think this is the same for park service fees.

I would like to see a more direct relationship between the fees we pay and maintenance/ funds expended on the site where the fee was collected.
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Old 09-17-2007   #18
caverdan's Avatar
C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
I'm pretty sure all the fee's that they collect at the put in are used in that district or area.

On the Ark you pay for just the day at either the put in or take out. Keep your receipt with you so you don't get hassled. I too buy season passes. The one up at Pumphouse is only $15.00.

Try your "free use because I'm only taking out my boat here" arguement down at Rancho and see where that gets you. They charge $2.00 a person.
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Old 09-17-2007   #19
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
I can't believe that this argument's even happening. It states that you have to pay for USE pretty plainly. I've learned my lesson with a $25 ticket dropping off a car at Stone Bridge - duuuhhh.... Now I'll stop by Safeway on the way to my first trip to the Ark and fork over $50 every for the Parks Pass - its nice to breeze in to the takeout without having to hassle with the pay station.

My biggest complaint is having the patchwork of different agencies throughout the State so my Parks Pass is worthless on the Upper C. That said, you have to admit that $3 to be able to drive right down to the river's edge and launch or take out isn't much considering what you're getting in return (toilets, decent roads, access to an awesome time, picnic table and latrine at riverside camps, etc.). Go spend a couple of hours of your leisure time hiking your boat out or dealing with landowners and think about it. Or like Dan says, try the argument at a private boat ramp...

As for the "User fees = double taxation" argument, remember that We the People voted for the congress that cut taxes and engage in expensive & unnecessary wars. When your nation's prevailing philosophy is to starve the government, you're not going to get much in the way of government services, are you?

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 09-17-2007   #20
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
I can't believe that this argument's even happening.
I think this argument is happening because kayakers are inherently cheap (even the ones with money). I proudly include myself in this company of dirtbags. It irritates me to pay to camp, paddle, etc even if the money is spent to maintain the area. For me it doesn't even have to do with the double taxation thing,.... its just the fact that there is something tainted about getting out of the rat race just to have to pay to play in the woods. Is this making a mountain out of $3 mole hill? Yes,.... but based on my totally emotional and illogical philosophy I still poach any pay to stay/play place whenever I think I can get away with it. Which is probably one of the many reasons that the forest service/BLM/national parks/private land owners, etc have a beef with us.
I was actually having a similar conversation with a buddy this summer while dealing with some land owners who were giving us a verbal tongue lashing (and we had actually been following all rules/regulations) and I was astonished that people don't see kayakers as stewards of the land, becasue I feel like I do a pretty good job of keeping my impact low, etc. He told me that he wasn't surprised, because as a whole we aren't that great...His home run requires you to drive over private land to access the creek. The land owner has to provide egress to access the national forest beyoned, but could easily make things difficult. My buddy talked with the land owner this summer and was informed that kayakers were by FAR the worst users of the land that lay beyond his property. Worse than hikers, hunters, ATV, dirtbikes, etc.
Moral of this totally long winded tangential story: Maybe I'll start shelling out the scratch to play in the woods when that's what it takes to play.

Chris Morrison
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